Travelling with children

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Women might be capable, we all have fingers and toes, but women just don't do it in anything remotely like the numbers that men do. Women aren't socialised or hard-wired for it in the same way. Like I said, I work in the field, my knowledge is experiential rather than stats based, although I'm fully conversant with the research. I've worked with victims and offenders for years and I’ve trained with some of the best in the world.
I always find it funny when men cite anti-discrimination legislation in cases like this... at the end of the day it's about protecting kids through managing risk, and the risk is being accurately assessed in this case. Whether it offends you or not, it's right that males are the core population of sex offenders, and more than that, they're the sole offender group who would commit this kind of high risk sex offence. I think the community expectation is that people are more concerned with protecting children than trying to cry discrimination when the risk policies are evidence based.
Put it the other way, if airlines were successfully challenged (which I don't believe could happen because of the overwhelming evidence in support of what they're doing) and men could sit next to UM's, you'd without a doubt see a spike in incidents of child abuse on aircraft. The you have the jurisdictional complexity of prosecution where it's an international flight, the fact that the child may not have access to good supports in the destination country... you're talking about massively increasing the risk of victimisation of children, placing them in a situation where it's even more traumatic than if abused where they have the ability to access supports in a familiar environment, making the process even more traumatic for them... for what? So men have the privilege of sitting next to a UM? So they don't get asked to swap seats once or twice in a decade? To my mind that position is an extraordinarily selfish one to adopt.

Anyway, I'm done hijacking the thread, just my thoughts.

Since the thread is hijacked, what is the percentage of the total population which may have such urges?

Why am I so passionate about this issue? Well I've been accosted at the mall for simply trying to help a child in need, I was worried that an over zealous FA might not have realised it was my daughters I was sitting next to a couple of weeks ago on the plane (this is a problem which others have had happen to them). Hell thanks to this current BS climate I get worried that someone is going to call the cops on me if I'm out in public with one of my kids and they have a meltdown and I'll be put into a position where I'll have to prove I am the child's father, it does happen, an episode of "the force" / cops has actually showed it happening to a father.

I'm all for locking up the actual sick people who would do such things to kids, I am 100% against profiling a person simply because they are male.
 
Why does every conversation even remotely related to children flying devolve into this vitriol?

OP has decided:

Ok then to reduce complications I will book it one adult/one child in F and one adult/one child in J.
...

Enough already.
 
Women might be capable, we all have fingers and toes, but women just don't do it in anything remotely like the numbers that men do. Women aren't socialised or hard-wired for it in the same way. Like I said, I work in the field, my knowledge is experiential rather than stats based, although I'm fully conversant with the research. I've worked with victims and offenders for years and I’ve trained with some of the best in the world.
I always find it funny when men cite anti-discrimination legislation in cases like this... at the end of the day it's about protecting kids through managing risk, and the risk is being accurately assessed in this case. Whether it offends you or not, it's right that males are the core population of sex offenders, and more than that, they're the sole offender group who would commit this kind of high risk sex offence. I think the community expectation is that people are more concerned with protecting children than trying to cry discrimination when the risk policies are evidence based.
Put it the other way, if airlines were successfully challenged (which I don't believe could happen because of the overwhelming evidence in support of what they're doing) and men could sit next to UM's, you'd without a doubt see a spike in incidents of child abuse on aircraft. The you have the jurisdictional complexity of prosecution where it's an international flight, the fact that the child may not have access to good supports in the destination country... you're talking about massively increasing the risk of victimisation of children, placing them in a situation where it's even more traumatic than if abused where they have the ability to access supports in a familiar environment, making the process even more traumatic for them... for what? So men have the privilege of sitting next to a UM? So they don't get asked to swap seats once or twice in a decade? To my mind that position is an extraordinarily selfish one to adopt.

Anyway, I'm done hijacking the thread, just my thoughts.

And you have side-stepped the whole issue of abuse often taking place by someone known to the victim. Should we separate uncles/fathers from sitting next to their children?

I go back to this point... it is not illegal for an adult male to sit next to a child.

On trams, trains, and buses it happens all the time. What makes an airline able to humiliate a man based on their policy?

By all means, upgrade the male passenger, or offer them another seat with a spare one beside it as 'a matter of comfort'... rather than making it so obvious that they aren't to be trusted.

Victoria has the Working with Children Check. But it has not extended that to every single male in the population. Although, as I've said before... some helicopter/Tracey-Spicer parents might want that.
 
I suspect you didn't read all the post - the point was to protect them from naughty men, not hate them. I'm just pointing out how stupid it's becoming try to protect them from everything.
 
Why does every conversation even remotely related to children flying devolve into this vitriol?

OP has decided:



Enough already.

There are clearly some important issues that need to be addressed as this thread has developed.

It is clear some adults think all men represent such a great risk that a policy of humiliation is warranted.

No one has said an airline can't have such a policy... but it should be completed before passengers board.

In the very rare case where a male ends up sitting next to a UM, through no fault or action of their own, there seems to be some hysteria that the man will take the opportunity to become a sex offender.

I think we have a right to defend ourselves.
 
So every potential father should have a police check before becoming a father and every father should have a chaperone when picking up their kids from school. ?????? Sort it out before boarding!!!!

The logic is so twisted. Do we ban all Muslim travellers from flying just because the vast majority of aircraft terrorists are Islamic?
 
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Hi,

Is it acceptable (as per say EY or most top airlines) to have say two adults flying F and two kids (aged 7 and 10) flying in Y or J ?
Or does the entire family have to be seated together (in the same cabin) is the kids are <17 ?

Thanks

So are you saying "let other people look after your children while you enjoy your flight in first class? I for one would not be at all happy to be seated near children who's parents were in another class seating regardless of how close they were. You would be sleeping away while others were possibly being disturbed and I cannot imagine you being too upset about that! I should hope that the airline would make it as difficult as possible for this to occur!
 
Wow, what happened to this thread :confused:

FWIW, I can't remember the last time I saw UMs on a plane, and I fly all the time, so I think it's fair to say that UMs make up a tiny proportion of overall passenger numbers. Similarly, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of air travellers are not paedophiles. So the odds of UMs getting randomly seated next to a paedophile AND the paedophile deciding to take the opportunity to assault them in such a public place really are miniscule.

The bottom line is, if parents are genuinely worried that such an improbable event might happen, then they can easily choose not to send their kids on a plane as UMs.
 
Google is your friend. I'm at work and not about to start googling the relevant statistics from a work computer, but they're easily obtainable.

Debates don't work like that, you've made an assertion that "there must be a substantial number of men who have committed offences but have never been charged or convicted of them". Surely you either have some idea of the number yourself or you are pulling figures / making assumptions out of the air.
 
Debates don't work like that, you've made an assertion that "there must be a substantial number of men who have committed offences but have never been charged or convicted of them". Surely you either have some idea of the number yourself or you are pulling figures / making assumptions out of the air.

I totally agree, and in any case, what kind of reliable statistics could there be about people who have committed offences but never been charged or convicted? Where could the data come from if not from police/court records? It's utterly ridiculous to claim that a "substantial" number of men are sex offenders that just haven't been caught yet.
 
And the stats are inaccurate in that these sorts of crimes are vastly underreported, but I've never seen any suggestion that the crimes by one gender are less reported than crimes by the other.

Domestic Violence?
 
People .. you're wasting your time talking about dangers to the children, or inconvenience inflicted on other passengers or cabin crew by the ankle biters. The OP has already decided that they want their kids in another cabin. They just want the airline to make it happen. That is .. it's all about the OP's comfort, not anyone else's.
 
I started reading this thread as it was highlighted in the AFF newsletter email. And there was I hoping it wouldn't degenerate into the usual rant about not wanting to seat children next to men. Foolish me.

Nizar, I think sitting one adult and one child together in each cabin is the best solution, as you have done.

*unsubscribes*
 
When we travelled with our children we travelled in J on redemption tickets and the children (one of each) from approximately 10 years old travelled in economy (paid tickets).
After we boarded we would tell the cabin attendants the situation.
We never had any problems. We were mainly flying QF and Singapore.
CMak
 
Debates don't work like that, you've made an assertion that "there must be a substantial number of men who have committed offences but have never been charged or convicted of them". Surely you either have some idea of the number yourself or you are pulling figures / making assumptions out of the air.

More than happy to look it up at some other stage, but for obvious reasons I am not going to start searching for stats on this from a work computer.

I have read extensive materials on the under-reporting of sexual assaults, but I'm afraid I don't have the sort of brain that recalls numbers easily - so no, I'm not pulling things out of the air, but I also don't have materials handy.

The materials are however readily obtainable - so if you want to, you can google. That's all - I wasn't suggesting you had to, or indeed that I won't at some point. I just can't right now.
 
I'm not one for splitting a young family..... IME family trips should be enjoyed together.
 
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I disagree. I don't think the OP is asking or expecting anyone to supervise his/her children or asking for an opinion as to whether it's morally or otherwise acceptable or not for the kids to be in a separate cabin.

I think the issue will be that the kids will require to travel as unaccompanied minors as the parents are not in the same cabin.
Note that some airlines eg.AA will not allow mileage redemptions for unaccompanied minors so that will need to be factored into the plans if applicable.
Ex to
It might help a bit,if the parent stake the kids on a cruise. Plenty of on board activities on board to keep
the little darlings happy. It will give peace of mind to pax in. J class not having to tolerate noisy kids on board the aircraft.
 
Ex to
It might help a bit,if the parent stake the kids on a cruise. Plenty of on board activities on board to keep
the little darlings happy. It will give peace of mind to pax in. J class not having to tolerate noisy kids on board the aircraft.

Thanks for that, probably doesn't help the the OP though.
 
I totally agree, and in any case, what kind of reliable statistics could there be about people who have committed offences but never been charged or convicted? Where could the data come from if not from police/court records? It's utterly ridiculous to claim that a "substantial" number of men are sex offenders that just haven't been caught yet.


Finkelhor (1994) found that internationally, estimates vary from between seven percent and 36 percent for women, and three and 29 percent for men. A random sample of 2,869 18 to 24 year olds in the United Kingdom found that 11 percent reported having been sexually abused before the age of 13 years (Cawson et al. 2000). Price-Robertson, Bromfield and Vassallo’s (2010) summary of Australian prevalence studies estimates that four to eight percent of males and seven to 12 percent of females experience penetrative child sexual abuse and 12 to 16 percent of males and 23 to 36 percent of females experience non-penetrative child sexual abuse.


Abel et al. (1987) give median figures of 1.3 female and 4.4 male non-incest victims per child sex offender who targets children outside of their family.


So it's not like it's only a few sickos targeting that, say, 10% of the population who report they've been sexually abused as a kid.


As the numbers of convicted criminals are far lower than this, my point stands, there are a substantial number of men out there who have abused kids, and opportunistic behaviour plays a big role in this. I'm not up to dredging up any more on this tonight - it's a pretty sickening topic - but there is plenty more out there, including statistics on male vs female offenders (Abel & Harlow 2001, if you want some light bed time reading, found women have very low rates compared with men of offences against children).
 
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