United Airlines stranded at immigrationless Canberra

[ozbeachbabe]

QF and CBR don't really have anything to do with this. Customs staff at based at CBR could have process the aircraft had UA asked them to. They likely didn't because their aircraft still had to go to SYD and had they been processed in CBR, they would arrive in SYD as domestic and the UA staff at SYD don't know how that would work while still needing to arrive at T1. UA had new crew position down from SYD to complete the flight.

Why wouldn't the flight just arrive at the international terminal with pax processed as domestic pax like what happens on the JQi flights many of us have travelled on domestically. Guess CBR doesn't have any orange D stickers.

They had just flown for 14 hours from SFO. UA only has 777-200s and 777-200ERs. Only their 200ER can reach SYD/CBR from SFO. It can't do SFO-MEL, and if they were close to landing in SYD when the runway was closed, they wouldn't have had to fuel to turn around and go to BNE. (A 777-200LR or -300ER wouldn't have an issue, UA doesn't have any) By the time they reached SYD airspace, they would have had about 1 hour of fuel and were faced with "runway closed, duration unknown". Their options would have been either orbit SYD for an hour and hope the runway opened in time, or go to CBR 20 mins away.

So what was the alternate city for this flight then? A flight has to have enough fuel for the planned trip SFO/SYD plus reserves plus enough to fly to the alternate if for some reason they can't get into SYD.

 

[jb747]

So what was the alternate city for this flight then? A flight has to have enough fuel for the planned trip SFO/SYD plus reserves plus enough to fly to the alternate if for some reason they can't get into SYD.

That's a very common misconception. A flight DOES NOT require an alternate, unless the weather is below the "alternate criteria". Most flights have minutes above the reserves...not hours.

 

[Scr77]

Most flights have minutes above the reserves...not hours.

Is that normally because it is more efficient or because long haul flights are at a planes maximum range?

 

[garee]

I think we need a pilots view on this. Most of the posts seem to be speculating.
How much fuel would/should they have available?
What are the rules on crew hours and I assume the reason the new crew did not leave SYD until 3pm was they had to have a set no of hours from their previous flight.

PS would love to hear from someone who ended up in BNE, and what happened.

 

[mannej]

I think we need a pilots view on this. Most of the posts seem to be speculating.
How much fuel would/should they have available?
What are the rules on crew hours and I assume the reason the new crew did not leave SYD until 3pm was they had to have a set no of hours from their previous flight.

PS would love to hear from someone who ended up in BNE, and what happened.

JB747 is a pilot.

 

[DC3]

" .... Sydney's main runway, a 4.5-kilometre stretch of tarmac also running north-south, was not affected and continued to operate at capacity ...."

So the main North South runway was still operating.

Maybe next time some little domestic flight can be diverted to make room for an international arrival.

 

[Himeno]

What are the rules on crew hours and I assume the reason the new crew did not leave SYD until 3pm was they had to have a set no of hours from their previous flight.

They would have had to get the crew scheduled to operate UA840 and UA870 (the return flights from SYD to LAX/SFO) and arrange to transport them to CBR and BNE to collect the diverted aircraft.

 

[DC3]

I think we need a pilots view on this ......

An Air Traffic Controllers view wouldn't go amiss either. How they can send a 777 flight to CBR, inbound from the US, and let the dinky planes continue to land/depart in SYD.

 

[anat0l]

An Air Traffic Controllers view wouldn't go amiss either. How they can send a 777 flight to CBR, inbound from the US, and let the dinky planes continue to land/depart in SYD.

They "don't send a 777 to CBR" or what not, as far as I know. All they do is give permission to land at a specific time and place.

jb747 gave an idea in this and the Ask The Pilot thread about why ATC doesn't simply reshuffle the landing waitlist to allow, e.g. this beleaguered 777 with low fuel to land.

 

[harvyk]

An Air Traffic Controllers view wouldn't go amiss either. How they can send a 777 flight to CBR, inbound from the US, and let the dinky planes continue to land/depart in SYD.

I'd guess runway length might have something to do with it.

 

[Sprucegoose]

While "immirationless" is probably a typo it's not a bad description of this situation.

Canberra Airport is Marketed as 'International'

 

[Sprucegoose]

They "don't send a 777 to CBR" or what not, as far as I know. All they do is give permission to land at a specific time and place.

jb747 gave an idea in this and the Ask The Pilot thread about why ATC doesn't simply reshuffle the landing waitlist to allow, e.g. this beleaguered 777 with low fuel to land.

It was the Captains decision to land, maybe those asking should talk to him. Does he need to offer a reason? To his management otherwise I guess not.

 

[Danger]

The movement of the impacted aircraft to their destination ports aside, I would like to think that a bit of the Australian spirit would come into play here.

Surely any Australian capital city (and actually probably moreso at a regional port) could muster up some assistance at short notice. For goodness sake, these people have just landed on our shores after a 12+ hour flight.

This is be no means a knock but I would like to think Virgin and Qantas would be more than happy to send out a couple of galley trolleys of snacks and essential supplies in such a situation, whether they're asked to or not. A few hundred dollars to extend some Aussie goodwill would surely be money well spent.

And being home to the AFP and all the other bureaucracy, how hard would it have been to bus the passengers to a remote part of the airport or even a government building where they could be 'monitored' and allowed to stretch their legs. If Canberra can't do it, what hope have we got.

Protocols and procedures far too often take precedent over a little commonsense and human decency in this world and it really gets on my nerves.

 

[Sparra]

An Air Traffic Controllers view wouldn't go amiss either. How they can send a 777 flight to CBR, inbound from the US, and let the dinky planes continue to land/depart in SYD.

Purely the Pilot in Command and the company make the decision to divert and where to, ATC just facilitate their requests.

 

[markis10]

And being home to the AFP and all the other bureaucracy, how hard would it have been to bus the passengers to a remote part of the airport or even a government building where they could be 'monitored' and allowed to stretch their legs. If Canberra can't do it, what hope have we got.

Protocols and procedures far too often take precedent over a little commonsense and human decency in this world and it really gets on my nerves.

Dont believe all that you read, they in fact were not held on the aircraft and where indeed free to roam to some extent when the delay became obvious.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-12/stranded-united-airlines-passengers/5963854

 

[TomVexille]

The movement of the impacted aircraft to their destination ports aside, I would like to think that a bit of the Australian spirit would come into play here.

Surely any Australian capital city (and actually probably moreso at a regional port) could muster up some assistance at short notice. For goodness sake, these people have just landed on our shores after a 12+ hour flight.

This is be no means a knock but I would like to think Virgin and Qantas would be more than happy to send out a couple of galley trolleys of snacks and essential supplies in such a situation, whether they're asked to or not. A few hundred dollars to extend some Aussie goodwill would surely be money well spent.

And being home to the AFP and all the other bureaucracy, how hard would it have been to bus the passengers to a remote part of the airport or even a government building where they could be 'monitored' and allowed to stretch their legs. If Canberra can't do it, what hope have we got.

Protocols and procedures far too often take precedent over a little commonsense and human decency in this world and it really gets on my nerves.

I do believe that QF catering was sent onboard.

 

[anat0l]

Dont believe all that you read, they in fact were not held on the aircraft and where indeed free to roam to some extent when the delay became obvious.

What procedures in place would allow the passengers (and crew) on board off the aircraft in this regard in an otherwise uncontrolled situation (i.e. they have not been officially allowed to enter the country)?

 

[jb747]

What procedures in place would allow the passengers (and crew) on board off the aircraft in this regard in an otherwise uncontrolled situation (i.e. they have not been officially allowed to enter the country)?

It's going to vary from country to country. As we saw with Singair, land in Baku, and you'll get no help at all. On the other hand, my experience with the Philippine authorities was that they couldn't have been more helpful. Australia? Who knows...?

 

[UP4014]

Dont believe all that you read, they in fact were not held on the aircraft and where indeed free to roam to some extent when the delay became obvious.

Stranded United Airlines passengers line up for food on the tarmac in Canberra. - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Welcome to Australia, please just queue up in a similar fashion as would in West Congo for your food. Oh dear.

 

[anat0l]

Welcome to Australia, please just queue up in a similar fashion as would in West Congo for your food. Oh dear.

At least we didn't stop the aircraft and turn them back, yeah?