Virgin Australia and Qatar Announce Strategic Partnership

[jase05]

Yeah, but you would have to do it every year (or twice every 2 years to retain) and specifically with QR. How many people do you know who fly to Europe every year with QR? Clearly some people do, but I'd be confident in saying that the vast majority of Velocity members do not.

There would not be much point in switching to QR instead of Velocity/QFF unless you were confident of being able to retain QR status on an ongoing basis - otherwise you would soon find yourself with no status with any airline.

I would put myself in the category of someone who flies a lot, and have done so for 15+ years (at least pre-pandemic) - but I've only flown 4 QR segments in my life! And not because I haven't wanted to - the reality is that QR has almost never been the most cost effective option for my EU trips, and it's not a logical option for US or East Asia. I would definitely have to get very creative to ensure I made 4 QR segments per year.

Currently have the ADL-AKL option for a status run to gain the 4 segments. Not sure how long that will last though

 

[justinbrett]

Increased competitiveness against QF. That is the main game for VA — take market share from QF. The more VA can make itself look like a fully fledged airline (ie one with good international partnerships), the better chance it has of stealing QF's most valued customers off it.

I fail to see how this competes with QF at all. Quite the contrary, it's opened an avenue for rusted on VA customers to continue to fly VA but join a oneworld program. And once there, the temptation to fly QF for easy status runs is going to bite.

VA offering a partnership with QR isn't going to attract any QF customers as they already have that.

I think it makes Velocity a more viable FF program, but as an airline I'm failing to see what VA are getting apart from a very marginal number of pax as feeder traffic from QR. And even then, there's nothing stopping those QR members booking through a travel agent and getting QF connections booked instead - they really get the best of both worlds.

 

[Jack_OC]

I'm more than happy to take a return flight to Europe on QR if it means I have top tier status with both VA & QF and can effectively pool my status/points earn with both in QR.

You can't get top tier status with QF (Platinum 1) via any program other than QFF. Also worth bearing in mind that QFF's second tier (Platinum) has an extremely useful benefit that is not available to people with OW Emerald status from other airlines - which is the ability to request release of QFF award seats in premium cabins.

The absolute best QR status could offer would be on par with Velocity Platinum and close to, but not quite as good as QFF Platinum. Clearly it would be great to get that from one program, but if you're seriously suggesting you would be would be willing to fly to the EU with QR every year just to retain QR status, then I suspect you are someone who travels enough to get status with both Aussie programs easily enough by the traditional means. Velocity status in particular is really not difficult to get/retain if you're someone who flies a lot, especially if you have a family.

Currently have the ADL-AKL option for a status run to gain the 4 segments. Not sure how long that will last though

Yeah, that's a fair point. However, in this case you'd need to do 2 round trips a year, and most Aussies don't live in Adelaide, or particularly want/need to to go to Auckland twice a year. Again I think this would be a fairly niche option.

 

[RAM]

I fail to see how this competes with QF at all. Quite the contrary, it's opened an avenue for rusted on VA customers to continue to fly VA but join a oneworld program. And once there, the temptation to fly QF for easy status runs is going to bite.

VA offering a partnership with QR isn't going to attract any QF customers as they already have that.

I think it makes Velocity a more viable FF program, but as an airline I'm failing to see what VA are getting apart from a very marginal number of pax as feeder traffic from QR. And even then, there's nothing stopping those QR members booking through a travel agent and getting QF connections booked instead - they really get the best of both worlds.

All of a sudden companies using the cheap Business VA domestic pricing can now dovetail this with Qatar for international business travel.

That has to be a major enticement to avoid Q's call centres? But not an 'enhancement'.

On the Q call centre thread there are many posts from frustrated people trying to change full-fare business who've been spending full days on hold, cut-off, not called back to action even the simplest issues.

The timing of this announcement is no accident nor is the 'mid year' start date IMHO.

Just in time for the normal business exodus to the Northern summer & sporting events. Bain continue to play the game well.

Jump back to early 2020 and it was like a pre-Feb 24th 2022 talking heads free-for-all on how Q was going to steam roll the soon to be non-existent VA. Actions on the ground have caused very many red faces... Reputations have been severely damaged/improved for both participants.

 

[Mwenenzi]

Yeah, that's a fair point. However, in this case you'd need to do 2 round trips a year, and most Aussies don't live in Adelaide, or particularly want/need to to go to Auckland twice a year. Again I think this would be a fairly niche option.

Currently have the ADL-AKL option for a status run to gain the 4 segments. Not sure how long that will last though

From post 39 above the QR flight qualification is marketed *or* operated.
With VA-QR code shares could fly MEL-ADL(VA operated QR marketed) and ADL-AKL (QR marketed QR operated) return to get the 4 qualifying QR segments. But getting the rest needed for QR status would be a hard expensive slog. And ADL-AKL is not likely to stay.

 

[justinbrett]

Again I think this would be a fairly niche option.

Plenty of people on this forum living in Australia already do so with QR, BA & AA (and probably others) - and that's when QF already offer a oneworld program.

People who want the security of a global alliance FF program will be pretty motivated to do so.

You can do your status over 2 years - so could easily do one status run every 2 years with a couple of DOH-DXB/AUB runs to tick up the count.

All of a sudden companies using the cheap Business VA domestic pricing can now dovetail this with Qatar for international business travel.

That has to be a major enticement to avoid Q's call centres? But not an 'enhancement'.

On the Q call centre thread there are many posts from frustrated people trying to change full-fare business who've been spending full days on hold, cut-off, not called back to action even the simplest issues.

The timing of this announcement is no accident nor is the 'mid year' start date IMHO.

Just in time for the normal business exodus to the Northern summer & sporting events. Bain continue to play the game well.

Jump back to early 2020 and it was like a pre-Feb 24th 2022 talking heads free-for-all on how Q was going to steam roll the soon to be non-existent VA. Actions on the ground have caused very many red faces... Reputations have been severely damaged/improved for both participants.

I don't think those two things are linked - there's nothing stopping them flying VA domestic and QR international now without this agreement.

And I don't think businesses with scale enough to make a difference are booking directly with QF or VA - they're using corporate travel services, so the call centre thing isn't an issue for them. They're certainly not paying full fare, otherwise neither airline cares about their business.

 

[justinbrett]

But getting the rest needed for QR status would be a hard expensive slog. And ADL-AKL is not likely to stay.

Unless you do it on QF which would be cheap and easy. And this is why this is a problem for VA.

 

[Jack_OC]

Plenty of people on this forum living in Australia already do so with QR, BA & AA (and probably others) - and that's when QF already offer a oneworld program.

People who want the security of a global alliance FF program will be pretty motivated to do so.

You can do your status over 2 years - so could easily do one status run every 2 years with a couple of DOH-DXB/AUB runs to tick up the count.

I'm not trying to suggest that it's impossible. While you say that "plenty" of people already do this with other programs, the reality is they represent a small minority of actual frequent flyers, and an even smaller proportion of the overall membership of Velocity/QFF. Doing overseas status runs to retain status with an overseas FF program is very much a niche activity, even in the context of AFF.

I just don't see much of a risk of people ditching Velocity en masse in favour of QR.

 

[levelnine]

I fail to see how this competes with QF at all. Quite the contrary, it's opened an avenue for rusted on VA customers to continue to fly VA but join a oneworld program. And once there, the temptation to fly QF for easy status runs is going to bite.

You need a bit more imagination then. QF is the bigger program — by orders of magnitude. They have way more to lose than VA. What this potentially does is make VA a way more viable competitor system. Take just one example. If you can redeem VA points on QR for less than you can redeem QF points on QR, you now have a huge incentive switch your credit cards and your flying to VA. QF has lost someone who was entirely in their ecosystem to someone who is now entirely with the competitor's ecosystem.

worth bearing in mind that QFF's second tier (Platinum) has an extremely useful benefit that is not available to people with OW Emerald status from other airlines - which is the ability to request release of QFF award seats in premium cabins.

But QR has greater access to seats on QR than QF does, which is typically limited to two J seats per flight in and out of Australia and often no seats. You also will lose access to the Qantas call centre, which some will consider to be the greatest gift of all... So it is swings and roundabouts.

if you're seriously suggesting you would be would be willing to fly to the EU with QR every year just to retain QR status, then I suspect you are someone who travels enough to get status with both Aussie programs easily enough by the traditional means

The point is that if you could pool VA & QF credits/points in QR in an effective way, it becomes far easier for the semi-regular flyer to reach elite status. No more having to do a status run at the end of the year, no more having to desperately book flights during a double status credit window, etc. Simply pool your semi-regular flying on VA & QF along with your annual trip to Europe on QR. It could be a great loophole for the savvy customer...

 

[justinbrett]

You need a bit more imagination then. QF is the bigger program — by orders of magnitude. They have way more to lose than VA. What this potentially does is make VA a way more viable competitor system. Take just one example. If you can redeem VA points on QR for less than you can redeem QF points on QR, you now have a huge incentive switch your credit cards and your flying to VA. QF has lost someone who was entirely in their ecosystem to someone who is now entirely with the competitor's ecosystem.

That would only apply to a very specific group of travellers - as there's pros and cons to that.

No lounge access leaving Australia unless it's class of travel (though I'm guessing VA would arrange a third party lounge - but we know it won't be the Flounge)
No lounge access in Europe except the very few destinations that QR has lounges
Travel to and within the US is now on UA (which most would say is a significant downgrade from DL)

If you're the kind of person who likes to fly QR, you should join the QR program. Your last paragraph is kind of my point which I agree with - and I think that's bad for VA.

The VA deal suits people who mostly fly within Australia, with the occasional need/desire to fly internationally. It's good for existing Velocity members, I'm not sure it's going to sway many people over. Probably fewer than VA will lose to QR.

 

[levelnine]

No lounge access leaving Australia unless it's class of travel (though I'm guessing VA would arrange a third party lounge - but we know it won't be the Flounge)
No lounge access in Europe except the very few destinations that QR has lounges
Travel to and within the US is now on UA (which most would say is a significant downgrade from DL)

If you're the kind of person who likes to fly QR, you should join the QR program. Your last paragraph is kind of my point which I agree with - and I think that's bad for VA.

The VA deal suits people who mostly fly within Australia, with the occasional need/desire to fly internationally. It's good for existing Velocity members, I'm not sure it's going to sway many people over. Probably fewer than VA will lose to QR.

You're missing the target demographic for this announcement. It is the person who has never stepped inside a First Lounge and probably never will in their lives. It is the person who has no idea what the Qatar frequent flyer program is and will never bother to find out about it. It is the person who cannot tell the difference between UA and DL — to their mind, they are both generic American carriers.

It is for the person who travels on a semi-regular basis domestically (enough to maybe get silver/gold) and earns most of their points through their grocery shop and credit card earn — in other words, the vast majority of Australians.

For those people, VA already has a lot of advantages. Often cheaper fares, contactable call centre, cheaper flight redemptions. The big disadvantage is their international network. This deal, along with its existing international alliances, helps remedy that blindspot.

 

[justinbrett]

For those people, VA already has a lot of advantages. Often cheaper fares, contactable call centre, cheaper flight redemptions. The big disadvantage is their international network. This deal, along with its existing international alliances, helps remedy that blindspot.

Which is what I said originally, good for Velocity, not good for VA the airline.

I don't think it's going to detract much from QF at all, but I guess we will see. Preferences for shopping at Woolworths vs Coles probably has more sway on these kinds of people.

 

[Vic]

Off topic, but I don't get the references to Bain. Virgin has a CEO, management team and board. I'd assume those are the people making the decisions, not Bain. Yes, no doubt they've all be appointed by Bain, but they're not bain.

While I'm off topic...

This. They (QR) may have a world leading product, but the State corruption and human rights abuses are a massive concern.

What about EY and EK you say? Well, I've never felt unsafe transitting through AUH or DXB - I'm not sure the same could be said for the 13 Australian women who were subjected to a forced genital examinations (whilst in transit) - because a newborn baby was found in the toilets. This was only two years ago.

What was done about it? (Almost) nothing. It revolts me to the core.

I don't even know how this is relevant. A new born baby being found abandoned in a toilet is a unique and serious issue. Pulling out a one off extreme event to claim it's not safe defies logic to some extent. How many new born babies have been found in the other middle east airport? Can you really say the response wouldn't be the same at those other airports?

 

[Blackswan]

Off topic, but I don't get the references to Bain. Virgin has a CEO, management team and board. I'd assume those are the people making the decisions, not Bain. Yes, no doubt they've all be appointed by Bain, but they're not bain.

While I'm off topic...

I don't even know how this is relevant. A new born baby being found abandoned in a toilet is a unique and serious issue. Pulling out a one off extreme event to claim it's not safe defies logic to some extent. How many new born babies have been found in the other middle east airport? Can you really say the response wouldn't be the same at those other airports?

Wow. Just wow. You may not have a wife/girlfriend, but do you have sisters? Female friends?

I don't know if the response would have been the same at other airports - it hasn't happened there, and I'm not going to concern myself with this hyperthetical. If it does happen elsewhere (god forbid) I would apply the same reasoning, too.

What I do know is that it happened recently (i.e. within the last two years) to women travelling on QR flights. What I also know is there was a very weak/pittiful response from QR and the state, even after it was raised by the highest levels of the Australian Government.

To be clear, my logic is that it is a fact it's happened recently, and barely anything was done about it. It (or some other human rights violation to a pax in transit) could quite easily occur again by way of precedence.

You do you, though.

 

[Vic]

Wow. Just wow. You may not have a wife/girlfriend, but do you have sisters? Female friends?

I don't know if the response would have been the same at other airports - it hasn't happened there, and I'm not going to concern myself with this hyperthetical. If it does happen elsewhere (god forbid) I would apply the same reasoning, too.

What I do know is that it happened recently (i.e. within the last two years) to women travelling on QR flights. What I also know is there was a very weak/pittiful response from QR and the state, even after it was raised by the highest levels of the Australian Government.

You do you, though.

Sorry, the only wow, is the false logic that this couldn't happen at the other middle east airports.

edit, well and ignoring that it was a medical examination undertaken by appropriate professionals, not to mention the need to ensure the safety of the woman who has just given birth, you do realise child birth is extremely risky. Then there is the health and well-being of the child. There is much more involved than simplistic faux outrage.

I'll also reject the insulting assumptions about my personal life.

 

[Jack_OC]

But QR has greater access to seats on QR than QF does, which is typically limited to two J seats per flight in and out of Australia and often no seats. You also will lose access to the Qantas call centre, which some will consider to be the greatest gift of all... So it is swings and roundabouts.

Each to their own, but IMHO, the benefit of being able to request release of award seats with QF is far more valuable. QF have a lot more flights out of Australia, and obviously to a lot more destinations too. If indeed Velocity members get the same access to QR award seats as QR members, and/or this new partnership entices a lot of Aussies to migrate to QR, then due to increased competition, it may become a lot more difficult for anyone to get access to award seats on QR out of Australia. FWIW, QF P1 don't have to deal with the Qantas call centre

The point is that if you could pool VA & QF credits/points in QR in an effective way, it becomes far easier for the semi-regular flyer to reach elite status. No more having to do a status run at the end of the year, no more having to desperately book flights during a double status credit window, etc. Simply pool your semi-regular flying on VA & QF along with your annual trip to Europe on QR. It could be a great loophole for the savvy customer...

I realise that your initial point was that it would be great if you could get elite status covering both VA and QF at the same time (and I agree with that), but can you clarify how you think a "semi regular flyer" is going to earn elite status with QR? How do you define semi-regular - one domestic trip a month? I don't think that would even get you to Gold with QR, even if combined with an annual trip to EU (in Y).

In fact, by my calculations, 1 EU trip per year + MEL-SYD rtn in every working week of the year wouldn't quite get you to QR Platinum.

Getting Velocity status is actually pretty easy though, especially if you can exploit family pooling. You could almost certainly get to Velocity Platinum with less flying than you would need to get QR Gold.

 

[dajop]

Which is what I said originally, good for Velocity, not good for VA the airline.

Although what is good for Velocity can be good for the airline if it drives people into the ecosystem. Remains to be seen if these developments will do this.

 

[jakeseven7]

Off topic, but I don't get the references to Bain. Virgin has a CEO, management team and board. I'd assume those are the people making the decisions, not Bain. Yes, no doubt they've all be appointed by Bain, but they're not bain.

Well, there are Bain salaried employees working in the VA2 building at all times on top of the appointed executive positions.
I'm not sure how that is relevant to the QR deal though.

Although what is good for Velocity can be good for the airline if it drives people into the ecosystem. Remains to be seen if these developments will do this.

Like most have said, a good special on Cold Power in Coles will probably be more attractive than this hook up to the masses . It will appeal to a fringe few but its all about incremental steps to making Velocity a more viable alternative and this is another step in the right direction (in my opinion)

 

[Vic]

Well, there are Bain salaried employees working in the VA2 building at all times on top of the appointed executive positions.
I'm not sure how that is relevant to the QR deal though.

Post automatically merged: May 11, 2022

Because a number of commentators are saying the QR deal is a decision made by Bain. I'd say it was made by the appointed, legal management team. Just a case of getting details correct.

 

[justinbrett]

I realise that your initial point was that it would be great if you could get elite status covering both VA and QF at the same time (and I agree with that), but can you clarify how you think a "semi regular flyer" is going to earn elite status with QR? How do you define semi-regular - one domestic trip a month? I don't think that would even get you to Gold with QR, even if combined with an annual trip to EU (in Y).

In fact, by my calculations, 1 EU trip per year + MEL-SYD rtn in every working week of the year wouldn't quite get you to QR Platinum.

Getting Velocity status is actually pretty easy though, especially if you can exploit family pooling. You could almost certainly get to Velocity Platinum with less flying than you would need to get QR Gold.

SYD-DOH-LHR return in classic Y - 86
SYD-MEL return in classic Y (flying QF) - 10

For 48 weeks = 566
Enough to retain, but not attain QR Platinum.


If on QF:
SYD-DXB-LHR return in Y - 190 (QF marketed EK flights for the closest comparison - but same via SIN or direct)
SYD-MEL return in Y - 20

For 48 weeks = 1150 (+50 loyalty bonus)
Enough to retain, but not attain QF Platinum.

But pretty easy on both counts to build up the status by connections instead of flying direct.

It's a bit of a moot point though - as QR doesn't give qpoints for non-oneworld flights as far as I can see (not even LATAM who only recently exited) so unlikely they'll give to VA unless booked as QR flights on an international connection.

Definitely easier to maintain WP on VA - only 40 return SYD-MEL trips, no European trip required.
But then again on QF - if you were to be in the US, you could do a oneway trip in F (2 legs) for around US$500 and earn about 140 SCs - equivalent to 7 return MEL/SYD trips. The same trip credited to QR only gets you 25 qpoints.

Personally, there's no way I could retain QF WP without domestic AA trips in F.