Virgin Blue - Acknowledement to Country PA

[simongr]

Then how can there be a land owner?

 

[wallacej]

Then how can there be a land owner?

Good question. I had always understood that they were at one with the land...nd didn't own it... or am I thinking of the maerican indians...education...all so long ago...

 

[simongr]

I was in the same boat last night too - my knowledge of indigenous people comes from studying the native americans at school with their clear non-land ownership views - hence when they "sold" Manhattan for some blankets and beads they thought they were the ones getting the good deal...

 

[Yada Yada]

It's funny how people can be so knowledgable in one area (flying) whilst be totally ignorant in another.

(pity the forum limits use of smilies or I'd have put in a lot more!) I must meet you one day, Andrew.

In a vast generalisation, about a myriad of Ancient Australian cultures, (ones that I know so little about), may I suggest -
* that where you see two, they see one!

Nicely said, Petch.

I think this is a nice move by VB and I'd like to see QF do it too. If they are happy to paint some of their planes with Aboriginal art then this would be a small but significant guesture.

 

[simongr]

Yada Yada - can you explain what that comment means though - I am not being difficult or obtuse I am just trying to understand the relevance of this announcement and what it is meant to represent.

 

[Yada Yada]

Yada Yada - can you explain what that comment means though - I am not being difficult or obtuse I am just trying to understand the relevance of this announcement and what it is meant to represent.

Petch's comment? Simply that we (i.e. those of western culture descent) see themselves as individuals and everything else from the same viewpoint, e.g. the land is a composition of dirt, rocks, minerals (which can be dug up) and animals and plants as separate/individual things too. Everything is a discrete unit if you like that can be bought/sold/etc.

Indigenous people don't view things this way. The land is not just dirt, minerals etc but a whole environment that sustains them and is sustained by people, their culture and other living things. The land is the core of their spirituality. They feel "at one" with the land.

So (my assumption is) VB's announcements are meant to show respect for the traditional "owners" (of if you like inhabitants) of this land. I'm certainly no expert on indigenous culture but this is my understanding of it.

 

[simongr]

Ok - I understand that concept but I am struggling to make the link between indigenous people's view of the land, us showing respect for that and landing an aircraft. Why does landing an aircraft then lead us to need to show respect for the traditional custodians of the land?

 

[serfty]

... Guess some at DJ, perhaps even Brett Godfrey, feel they are making a contribution to "the reconciliation process".

I perceive it will not last long; most FA's who read it out will become tired of it, but the kicker is that DJ may actually lose some high revenue business. This would be due to making some feeling uncomfortable or annoyed at having a view they disagree with expressed as fact to them as part of a captive audience.

It's for the same reason that high profile sports people are instructed by their agents to avoid making any public comment indicating political preference - they immediately alienate at least 40% of their possible revenue base.

In the case of the topic at hand, perhaps not 40% on head count, but maybe a high level based on revenue.

 

[Yada Yada]

Ok - I understand that concept but I am struggling to make the link between indigenous people's view of the land, us showing respect for that and landing an aircraft. Why does landing an aircraft then lead us to need to show respect for the traditional custodians of the land?

You are right in that it has nothing at all to do with landing an aircraft.

I just think they are trying to embrace something of wider cultural significance that has been swept under the carpet and ignored for the past two centuries. It's really just a symbolic act but in my view refreshing and worthwhile because it reminds us of some important truths about this country and its history.

Serfty may be correct in that it might not last long if enough hard-nosed business people object to the announcements. That's sad if true and in my view is narrow-minded and selfish. I know western culture promotes otherwise it's not always all about "me". We live in a community, not an economy. [Steps down off soap box]

 

[acampbel]

Much easier to make a dig than make a reasoned argument isn't it surely?

acampbell - is there something we missed about that day's flight and the significance of the arrival in BNE? I will admit my knowledge of indigenous affairs is pretty limited but I see no reason for this particular gesture. Especially as BNE is not an area that has a recorded group of traditional land owners based on the limited research I was able to do on the Native Title database and map.

simongr,

Sorry for the delay in responding ... I have sporadic access to email at the moment.

Some of your questions may have been answered by subsequent posts, but perhaps you are unaware that it is standard practice at many public meetings (e.g. Public School Assemblies) for the "Welcome to Country" announcement to preceed the agenda.

I also suspect that precious few of you watched the recent opening of parliament, so perhaps have missed the significance of it all. I was at a customer site and was unable to watch it live, but caught some of it on "Order in the House". From this and other media reporting I was given the impression that whilst the apology itself was warmly received, it was almost as important that the "Welcome to Country" protocol was performed beforehand. This simple act gave legitimacy to all that followed, and for the first time truly acknowledged the original inhabitants of Australia.

I have been surprised by the number of people I know (none of whom are indigenous Australians) that have cried whilst describing how the events in Canberra have affected them. This is from them having first-hand knowledge of the victims of forced separation, or even from just reading the "Bringing Them Home" report.


But what is really disappointing is the number of seemingly intelligent people who ignore all the positive aspects of this very simple acknowledgement, and make claims along the line that Virgin will lose a significant proportion of "high revenue business" if they persist with it. If nothing else it should be insulting to the forum members who fit this profile, as it paints them as ignorant and bigoted.



Cheers,


Andrew

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[Petch]

simongr, I think that we, on this board, have managed to demonstrate that we (sadly) do not have the collective experience to fully answer your questions.

If you are really interested in knowing more, then may I suggest finding an Elder in your area and asking? Unfortunately in our larger cities, the diatribe may be (significantly/understandably) diluted with political discourse, by words like “owner” & “nation”.

Another alternative is - take the [Northern] Territorians up on their offer; to “share our story”, next time you "go walkabout"/are tacking domestic segments onto the end of a DONE4… perhaps stop a while in DRW or ASP. Alternately, you may find a traditional Australian spirit still strong in the places/people of the Kimberley or Far North Queensland (via BME or CNS).

For a DIY spiritual connection with Australia, I think it’s hard to beat a walk along the shores of the Coral Sea in Townsville.

Starting at the top of The Strand, around the Rock Pool, and walking down toward the city - you move past modern shoreline structures, built in harmony with today’s Australian lifestyle & the environment. Plus your path is interspersed with a large amount of art, ideas & knowledge. (Not to mention magnetic views & a tropical setting, that helps make a typically perfect winter’s day, in our north.)

As you approach the city, the scenery changes, and you find yourself transported back in time a hundred years or so, by what I see as British Tropical Formality, both in terms of the grand architecture and the formal gardens. But as beautiful as the setting is, in terms of human endeavour, it seems out of place within its environment.

Finally, you continue on a little further, into a large grassed park, and notice between two enormous, extremely old fig trees - a glint of steel, something modern in this colonial space. As you walk towards it, you become aware of a hand print on it, one that resembles ancient Australian rock art. However it’s not on a rock in this place, but blown onto the top of a metal spear in the heart of this colonial park.

You move forward, pulled towards this anachronism, and can’t help but reach out to place your hand on it. And as you do, a soft ancient song starts up; you actually hear the sounds of didgeridoos getting louder. And as you stand there, in the shade of those two incredible fig trees, in a place that had seemed so old just a few moments ago, you hear the story of how the echidna got its spines, and you realise, this place is ancient!

 

[serfty]

... But what is really disappointing is the number of seemingly intelligent people who ignore all the positive aspects of this very simple acknowledgement, and make claims along the line that Virgin will lose a significant proportion of "high revenue business" if they persist with it. If nothing else it should be insulting to the forum members who fit this profile, as it paints them as ignorant and bigoted. ...

Rubbish!

Just because I make a statement about peoples attitudes that I believe to be true does not make me bigoted, nor would it insult forum members. I personally find your post quite insulting and there's the distinct smell of a "Shoot the messenger" attitude in your post.

Wether they are right or wrong is irrelevant.

FWIW, I was certainly not including myself as one of those who feel such announcements would make me uncomfortable.

 

[simongr]

simongr,

Sorry for the delay in responding ... I have sporadic access to email at the moment.

Some of your questions may have been answered by subsequent posts, but perhaps you are unaware that it is standard practice at many public meetings (e.g. Public School Assemblies) for the "Welcome to Country" announcement to preceed the agenda.

I also suspect that precious few of you watched the recent opening of parliament, so perhaps have missed the significance of it all.

Cheers,


Andrew

.

I am aware of that and think those are the right places for this sort of acknowledgement. What I dont understand is why this is appropriate for landing an aircraft - I dont get when I arrive at Central station or get out of a cab so why should we do it after a flight. It seems to me to actually devalue the acknowledgement.

I am not debating the significance of the apology to many people or the appropriateness of this in a public meeting etc. but I just fail to see the link between this and the wheels touching down at BNE.

 

[acampbel]

..... It seems to me to actually devalue the acknowledgement.....

So does singing Advance Australia Fare at sporting events devalue it? If so you will be grateful to hear that I don't stoop to such tokenistic behaviour.


Cheers,

Andrew

P.S. Serfty - you made an abhorrant statement with no basis in fact and then accused me of shooting the messenger! It was a self-inflicted wound so you won't be getting your Purple Heart.

.

 

[simongr]

OK understood you are right and I am wrong - thanks for putting me straight.

 

[straitman]

:?:

So does singing Advance Australia Fare at sporting events devalue it? If so you will be grateful to hear that I don't stoop to such tokenistic behaviour.


Cheers,

Andrew

P.S. Serfty - you made an abhorrant statement with no basis in fact and then accused me of shooting the messenger! It was a self-inflicted wound so you won't be getting your Purple Heart.

.

Andrew,

Quite frankly I find your comments abhorrant and insulting :!:

I've just read this thread from top to bottom and believe that I understand where people are coming from, however, there seem to be a bit of shoot the messenger occuring both ways.

Some (including acampbel) don't seem to want to acknowledge that there is a large number of people who have views opposite to there own for what ever reason. Does this automatically make them wrong :?: i think not :!:

IF you wish to change their opinions you need to offer facts rather than emotion to sway their beliefs.

There is probably a lot more I could say but I don't think this is the appropriate place and maybe it's time for the moderators to close this topic OR people to back off a little. :evil:

 

[wallacej]

I was born in the 70's, well 70 actually, and I feel somewhat ripped off by my education. The "lost generation" from what I have learned lately stopped in the mid 70's.

Now, until all this apology thing came up I was under the impression that the lost generation was another way of expressing how the aboriginal people were simply fogrotten about. Then the word stolen crept in to replace the word lost.

I am shocked, and can not beleive that we (as a nation) actually removed aboriginal children, with force at times from their parents.... now of course I still don't have the facts about the whole story, and looking to discuss this with my 14 & 11 year olds, as they may well know more than I do on this subject...

I for one am now glad that this apology is done, and do not understand why it was not done sooner, and why the hell did I not learn of this horrid part of our history from school or my parents...certainly learned about the gold rush and the stockade...

<hands the microphone back to Serfty>...

anyway, enough of that... back OT and I will put it down as DJ simply making the point that they acknowledge the events that are taking place in our society, and whether it is simply for marketing, or it is a genuine belief of DJ I applaud the gesture, and yes, QF probably should have done the same...but only as a short term gesture, I really do not want to have to listen to anyone from this forum singing the anthem before each take off..

 

[serfty]

... P.S. Serfty - you made an abhorrant statement with no basis in fact and then accused me of shooting the messenger! ...

You are welcome to believe my post to contain an "abhorrant statement". That is your right.

As for fact; I have spoken with a few people (non AFFers) who would find such arrival PA announcements would make them uncomfortable and less likely to fly DJ because it conflicts with their views. So, at the very least it is fact; whether you like that or not.

Be aware that I do not share their views on this.

You attacked me for mentioning this, if that is not akin to "shooting the messenger" I know not what is.

I have not attacked you other than posting I felt you insulted me by implying I personally would be less likely to fly DJ because of these announcements. I simply mentioned it as a situation DJ may have to deal with, never did I indicate it related to me.

I don't have a Bleeding heart; I believe in fee speech & there is generally more than one side to every story. I am one of the 20% who would not be alienated by sportsman publicly revealing a political allegiance.

 

[acampbel]

Just in case we are talking at cross-purposes, Serfty, here is the post that I was referring to .....

... Guess some at DJ, perhaps even Brett Godfrey, feel they are making a contribution to "the reconciliation process".

I perceive it will not last long; most FA's who read it out will become tired of it, but the kicker is that DJ may actually lose some high revenue business. This would be due to making some feeling uncomfortable or annoyed at having a view they disagree with expressed as fact to them as part of a captive audience.

It's for the same reason that high profile sports people are instructed by their agents to avoid making any public comment indicating political preference - they immediately alienate at least 40% of their possible revenue base.

In the case of the topic at hand, perhaps not 40% on head count, but maybe a high level based on revenue.

My interpretation of the points you have made were :-

• You don't think much of "the reconciliation process" (your quotes, not mine), and imply that Virgin is just paying lip service to it.
• You believe that the majority of Virgin cabin staff will refuse to say it
• You believe a significant number of business travellers will switch away from Virgin because they find it offensive
• You believe that views are facts and facts are views

But the English language can be a complex beast, so please set me straight where I have misinterpreted your post.

Now if I can calm down for a minute ....... my own interpretation of the Welcome to Country (or Acknowledgement of Country) is something like knocking on someone's door before you walk into their house. I can understand arguments about the relevance of such a protocol for air travellers (as someone pointed out - where do you draw the line?), but in general I think if you are the convener of an assembly of people then you should start proceedings with Acknowledgment of Country. It takes all of 10 seconds and gives respect to our land and its traditional custodians.

Perhaps I am being precious here, but when I heard my daughter recite the Acknowledgment to Country at the school assembly last week, I actually started to entertain the idea of adopting this country as my own.


Cheers,

Andrew

 

[simongr]

I think if you are the convener of an assembly of people then you should start proceedings with Acknowledgment of Country.

This is the fundamental gap we have between our views - I do not see getting on an aircraft as an assembly.