Virgin Blue announcements 26/08

[lovestotravel]

Eventually something has to give. Giving up and pulling out of routes (which they’re doing) or not even bothering to start new ones/expend services isn’t going to help them get anywhere. At least with the flights to Abu Dhabi, QF isn’t flying there, so they can get the foothold there and build it up.

You speak as if you want them to just pack it in and close up shop, then what?

Already said I wish them all the best, but Abu Dhabi is another fail in my books!

One word about getting a foothold for flights to the desert and then Europe

Emirates........

If you want a few more words

90 x Emirates A380's

 

[pauly7]

Not sure about this, but from most people here it seems that everyone wants DJ to up their J product so that QF would lower prices so that you can get QF cheaper .... Sort of defeat the purpose. :shock:

Agree but alot (including myself I hope) are giving DJ lurkers and crazydave some great constructive feedback!

But some, like our procurement team which just awarded QF our travel again (!) are in the mindset:

'we love virgin, never fly them, thankfully some other people do though'

Because that keeps QF on their toes for those who prefer QF!

 

[samh004]

Aaah yes... they could have, but then again they basically gave those two obnoxious LOTFAPians you were talking about the entire row 1 (i.e. full spread over two seats, each). So no more spare seat block for everyone else.

Yes. That was what happened. Not amused. Two people should not have six seats because they moan and hold up checkin for 20 minutes. I would have been quite happy to sit next to them and spoil their day.

I saw a Virgin Atlantic a/c as I taxied, so I guess they use someone else’s lounge, but if it’s just the 1 flight that comes down here, it hardly seems worth building a Clubhouse. As cool as it would be.

But more seriously, if they’re going to focus on BNE/SYD, then they only need to build 2 lounges. Better still, they could focus primarily on one, build the one lounge and make it work.

 

[anat0l]

I saw a Virgin Atlantic a/c as I taxied, so I guess they use someone else’s lounge, but if it’s just the 1 flight that comes down here, it hardly seems worth building a Clubhouse. As cool as it would be.

But more seriously, if they’re going to focus on BNE/SYD, then they only need to build 2 lounges. Better still, they could focus primarily on one, build the one lounge and make it work.

Coincidentally enough, VS use the NZ lounge in SYD T1. VA of course use MH's lounge. One has to wonder why MH maintain a lounge at SYD, but so be it (they probably have other customers using the same lounge).

The TT tie up between NZ and DJ should accelerate and/or streamline the choices of lounge. For what it could be worth, if the Virgin Group of Australia has some serious thoughts about joining *A, there is always the possibility of "coalescing" all of the *A lounges in SYD T1 to a super lounge. Failing that, one has to admit that if the Virgin Group is to have some sort of critical mass in SYD, then it probably deserves its own lounge to serve the group.

As for BNE, perhaps DJ/VA could, once again, take it up with the NZ lounge. I've heard reports that the NZ lounge doesn't get a great rap (cf. the SQ lounge), so perhaps Virgin can breathe some fresh life into it.

 

[777]

I think it's already been hinted in this thread and elsewhere that an international lounge in Sydney is on the cards for VA, DJ, VS, EY and Delta. I'd be shocked if better - or at least consistent - arrangements aren't made in MEL, and BNE some time soon as well but my money is on Air NZ as the first option for a solution there.

 

[lovestotravel]

There are so many things that could happen over the next 24 months!

Things are all over the place at the moment and DJ need to get things sorted ASAP.

Top of my list would be branding, of course that is being worked on, but all the different names just confuse the average consumer. With QF/JQ it's pretty simple! But with V Australia, Pacific Blue, Polynesian Blue & Virgin Blue it's quite hard. The large majority of people I speak to have no idea who VA are and if they do know who they are think they are a LCC...

Lounges:
The MH lounge in MEL is a joke. Was there recently and all I could get in the mornings was a hot chocolate or a coffee. I'd even rate a UA RCC higher in most cases! :shock:

BNE - No room for a lounge as far as I know so that's a bit hard.
SYD - They could use the old UA lounge
MEL - MH could ditch their lounge or UA could ditch it and share with NZ here!

So if VA are serious about international they need their own lounge! You are not going to keep the dedicated leisure traveller or business traveller happy with pathetic lounges. With QF you know you are going to have a pretty nice lounge wherever you are!

Trans Tasman:
So DJ/NZ want to become friends on the Tasman, another alliance to try to save a failed venture really here. DJ can't afford to keep flying it, NZ are scared of Jetstar. So they want to join up and save some $$. How does this fit in with DJ wanting a business product when NZ is scrapping their business product on the domestic/TT flights (excluding the 767/777/747). Again you need a consistent product to keep good customers. DJ have finally realised that the leisure traveller is not a good customer base to rely on, they will fly with whoever is the cheapest have have little loyalty.

USA:
Okay so DJ/NZ become friends on the Tasman, I wonder how NZ feels about someone flying TO SYD from NZ and then catching a VA plane to the USA...... Also how would DJ feel about someone flying from AUS TO NZ and then catching a NZ plane to the USA.

The USA market is a bloodbath, from memory DL/VA want to still join forces on this route as well ? I wonder how DL feel about a possible alliance between DJ/NZ on the Tasman route ?

Qantas will continue to undercut DJ on this route and make it very hard for VA to survive. Moving forward I think that the USA route will really be the only route VA will be flying.

Australia:
I have said my piece above about 2 x A330's either old or new, not enough to get anyone excited and how long is it going to take to rollout J class across the fleet. Years and year, again with QF you are going to get a J seat in every case, yes you may get an A330/767/738/734 but it's still a J seat. With DJ it's going to be a lottery from many years. Another fleet type has ALOT of costs associated with it, would a 739 have been better ?

Abu Dhabi:
Not that excited about this one, yes top marks for trying ANOTHER destination, but with Emirates expanding at a rapid pace, I wouldn't want to be competing anywhere near them. Added to that Jetstar flying to Europe soon, they are going to make it harder again. Jetstar getting all the bargin hunter leisure travellers and Emirates aiming for the premium end of the market with A380's flying everywhere (well not quite everywhere but 90 of these flying around is a big effort)

John Borgetti has his work cut out this time, and will be working very hard for his bonus payments this time

 

[Ansettaddict123]

a) That being said...2 aircraft................ Please.

b) 777W to South Africa - Wrong plane, wrong destination again

Fail!

a) 2 aircraft is a starting point, as stated by Borghetti. You simply cannot drop an entirely new type into a fleet without the infrastructure behind them.
Rearranging parking/ gates, training of staff (esp as Borghetti has stated that pilots will be drawn from the existing DJ pilot pool).

b) It was the most attractive destination at the height of the GFC, sure it may not have been the most efficient use of the aircraft (and Nadi/coughet) but it was the most attractive at the time.

 

[lovestotravel]

b) It was the most attractive destination at the height of the GFC, sure it may not have been the most efficient use of the aircraft (and Nadi/coughet) but it was the most attractive at the time.

Attractive to bean counters who think that simply flying an aircraft to anywhere is good ?

Not sure how you could make $$ from a 77W flying to Nadi/coughet.

They are both low-end tourist destinations that suit Jetstar sales perfectly! No-one wants a lie-flat business class bed to go to Fiji/coughet.

People who want a real high-end island holiday go to the Maldives or Tahiti!

 

[medhead]

DJ are not getting EK birds, so I am not sure why we are discussing the cabin!

The A330's are being leased from BOC Aviation who have 5 new build 330's on order.

Cheers
DJ737

I guess as usual it's nonews leading everyone up the garden path...

You’ve failed to read the thread. They’re getting new A330’s from BOC Aviation!!

Besides one claim I'm struggling to find information in the thread that they are not ex-emirates aircraft. As reported in the Australian.

Virgin will take two Airbus A330-200s, currently leased by Emirates, and introduce them on the Perth route next May. It has made it clear that this will just be the start of a bigger A330 fleet, but rejects suggestions it has already decided to take an additional five aircraft from Emirates.

They are getting 2 leased aircraft that were leased to Emirates. That explains how they can be both from emirates and leased from BOC. It also refers to 5 other aircraft which might just link in with the 5 new aircraft on order by BOC, but not from emirates as denied in the story.

While it might be convenient to say news is misleading people. There is nothing else reported in the thread so far that is inconsistent with the news story.

Here is a link
Virgin boosts frills in bid for West Australian services | The Australian

 

[Ansettaddict123]

Attractive to bean counters who think that simply flying an aircraft to anywhere is good ?

Not sure how you could make $$ from a 77W flying to Nadi/coughet.

They are both low-end tourist destinations that suit Jetstar sales perfectly! No-one wants a lie-flat business class bed to go to Fiji/coughet.

People who want a real high-end island holiday go to the Maldives or Tahiti!

The primary driver behind the short haul international destinations was increasing aircraft utilisation, as otherwise the aircraft would be parked at sydney incurring charges. Sure, they may both be low end leisure destinations, however (like I stated previously) these destinations, although not ideal, were selected as they were the most attractive at the time. Originally the aircraft were destined for the Trans pacific, however with traffic out of the USA severely impacted by the GFC (and outbound AU traffic not doing much better), VA didn’t want to saturate the market (leading to further discounting and thus further erosion of already low yields) and made the decision to deploy the aircraft on short/medium haul intl sectors.

 

[kamchatsky]

Attractive to bean counters who think that simply flying an aircraft to anywhere is good ?

Not sure how you could make $$ from a 77W flying to Nadi/coughet.

They are both low-end tourist destinations that suit Jetstar sales perfectly! No-one wants a lie-flat business class bed to go to Fiji/coughet.

People who want a real high-end island holiday go to the Maldives or Tahiti!

I think it is not much point talking about the past, but focusing on the future. Which at the moment JB is looking at Abu Dhabi.

Remember JB has seen it all in Qantas. He knows what they are up to. He is doing his best to counteract it! Give him time and he will slowly deliver. QF didn't get this big in a few months!

What I want to see though, is VA getting to Tokyo Haneda airport, and have codeshare with ANA for domestic flights as well as flights to Korea and China routes from Haneda. This would give them huge advantage over QF/JL who departs from Narita.

 

[medhead]

Abu Dhabi:
Not that excited about this one, yes top marks for trying ANOTHER destination, but with Emirates expanding at a rapid pace, I wouldn't want to be competing anywhere near them. Added to that Jetstar flying to Europe soon, they are going to make it harder again. Jetstar getting all the bargin hunter leisure travellers and Emirates aiming for the premium end of the market with A380's flying everywhere (well not quite everywhere but 90 of these flying around is a big effort)

You seem to be missing the point entirely Etihad will be competing with Emirates not Virgin. This arrangement gets daily flights to Abu Dhabi between both carriers and then onwards flights into europe.

 

[Ansettaddict123]

What I want to see though, is VA getting to Tokyo Haneda airport, and have codeshare with ANA for domestic flights as well as flights to Korea and China routes from Haneda. This would give them huge advantage over QF/JL who departs from Narita.

I seem to recall both Branson and BG alluding to this last year, or at least the possibility of it happening in the future. However, with the change of tack bought on by JB who knows what could happen next

 

[notzac]

If DJ think that by leasing 2 x 11 year old A330's is going to take on QF then they really still have no idea what they are doing.

Per samh004's comment, they're brand new. A complete guess, but I suspect the additional A332's that have been hinted at will probably come from the same source and will also be brand new.

Announcing MEL-LAX (non-stop) then sacking/cancelling the contract for the MEL ground staff before the launch.

Was it you that had a bee in your bonnet over this one the first time? I agree, it was a dumb move to keep selling tix when the service wasn't going to happen - but that's quite a while to be holding a grudge.

Changing flight times to an evening arrival into LAX

Agreed, another less than stellar move.

Changing flight times back to a morning/lunch arrival at LAX (Which it should have ALWAYS been)

I'm confused as to whether you see this as a good or bad thing ... yep, cancelling hotel bookings sucks, especially when there's a penalty to cancel (hi, travel insurance?) ... also, VA are hardly the first carrier to retime flights, so it's not like this has never happened before.

To fly a 77W to coughet and Fiji.

It was never going to work, but where else do you send them? HKT I never understood personally (why not BKK instead?), but IIRC, NAN was there merely so the plane was earning something rather than sitting on the ground @ SYD. It was probably a fairly clever thing to do from a marketing perspective -- I know a few people who took advantage of the cheap fares to NAN on VA, were pretty impressed and have since flown to the US on VA over other carriers as a result.

Okay, so the latest bird-brain idea is to fly to Abu Dhabi.... Couple of times a week from SYD and couple of times a week from BNE.

This is far from being bird brained. In case you weren't aware, EY have been trying to get additional frequencies SYD-AUH for a while now -- and the VA BNE-AUH flights are there to complement the existing EY flights -- so that's what this is all about. Plus it gives VA the ability to get their code on EY flights to a large chunk of western Europe.

Additionally, this time they've got quite a decent partnership which will offer status pax the usual bennies on both carriers, so there's compelling reason to choose VA/EY over other options.

Well that's all that is really going to happen! Qantas will just lower the price and keep the customers! Same as they have done on the USA route! VA are bleeding $$$ as they have to keep dropping prices both in Business class and down the back.

Right, so VA should just give up now. QF is always going to win no matter what, why should they even bother trying? While we're at it, EY should also give up because EK was here first..

The Virgin group of Australia should build a Clubhouse here! Seriously!

This. Multiple of! I know that crazydave98 has said that there will be a lounge announcement soon, but I sure hope it's a substantial announcement.

 

[dajop]

Attractive to bean counters who think that simply flying an aircraft to anywhere is good ?

Not sure how you could make $$ from a 77W flying to Nadi/coughet.

They are both low-end tourist destinations that suit Jetstar sales perfectly! No-one wants a lie-flat business class bed to go to Fiji/coughet.

People who want a real high-end island holiday go to the Maldives or Tahiti!

Yeh but that there's more than just the 35 seats at the front of the plane to fill. There's another 40 in Y+ and 288 in economy, and trouble is Maldives and Tahiti at $500/night or whatever they cost are not that appealling for the masses travelling up the back.

I am sure things would be vastly different if the whole GFC thing hadn't happened but it did. And VA responded by trying to keep their planes in the air in markets that they felt could probably at least cover the operating costs, anything extra above that serves to reduce the magnitude of the loss.

NAN aside, which was purely opportunistic, I think one of the biggest problem with HKT & JNB markets was lack of frequency, a route just isn't going to cut it with one or two flights a week up against multiple competitors with double daily flights (HKT) or single daily (JNB). Bit of a catch 22.

But what seems to be coming evident is DJ are going down the Alaska Airlines/Jet Airways path of choosing partners that provide mutual benefit. That actually might work quite well, if you look at four broad groupings of carriers - OW, ST, * and independents, entering an alliance could lock out stronger ties with the 2 remaining groups. They now have ties (with mutual status recognition, something usually reserved for alliances) with airlines from ST (DL), Indepts (EY & VS) and soon NZ (star) trans tasman. Can't remember the nature of this agreements, do they allow mutual status earning as well? I think that is important. Huge hole remains in Asia though. MH could fill that quite well.

 

[medhead]

Per samh004's comment, they're brand new. A complete guess, but I suspect the additional A332's that have been hinted at will probably come from the same source and will also be brand new.

I ask again where is this reported? The only report that mentions the source of the aircraft that I can find in this thread was the story in the Australian that I posted. Other than that I can only find posts claiming they're new but without any supporting reports.

 

[markis10]

Besides one claim I'm struggling to find information in the thread that they are not ex-emirates aircraft. As reported in the Australian.

They are getting 2 leased aircraft that were leased to Emirates. That explains how they can be both from emirates and leased from BOC. It also refers to 5 other aircraft which might just link in with the 5 new aircraft on order by BOC, but not from emirates as denied in the story.

While it might be convenient to say news is misleading people. There is nothing else reported in the thread so far that is inconsistent with the news story.

Virgin Blue Makes Major Changes | AVIATION WEEK


DJ were looking at the Emirates aircraft as reported in July but this is not what has transpired. Emirates only have two leased A330s in the fleet, from ILFC, not BOC.

 

[mannej]

I think VA jumped onto the JNB bandwagon whilst the World Cup was on. The additional demand was never going to last was it?

 

[medhead]

Virgin Blue Makes Major Changes | AVIATION WEEK


DJ were looking at the Emirates aircraft as reported in July but this is not what has transpired. Emirates only have two leased A330s in the fleet, from ILFC, not BOC.

Thanks. different leasing companies will do it every time. Damn news Ltd.

 

[markis10]

I am not sure why there were reports of new aircraft either, BOCA dont have any on order that would do the job for DJ.