Virgin involuntary downgrade scam

[ferntree]

I got an email yesterday from Virgin saying that due to an aircraft change on one of our bookings we had been downgraded from business class to economy.

I phoned the guest centre to discuss options, decided to accept this rather than change the flights - then was told I would have to wait until 21 days after taking the flight for a refund of the fare difference. This will not be until July.

I consider this to be unreasonable: Virgin initiated the change: I consider they have a moral (and possibly legal) obligation to refund the fare difference immediately. Before going to consumer affairs, is there any point of contact I could make within Virgin to give them an opportunity to behave reasonably?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[ben95]

I consider they have a moral (and possibly legal) obligation to refund the fare difference immediately.

Legally that’s not how it works. The refund obligation arises when you actually sit in economy rather than business for the flight, unless you decide to cancel now.

Aircraft change and passenger cancellation happens regularly before flight departure, so while VA has told you you have been downgraded, it’s technically possible the aircraft change be reversed and business class becomes available again through some other reasons (for example mechanical issue on the day and you are rebooked to Qantas business class) which will mean VA will have fulfilled its obligation to you - no need to refund you.

The law also allows for a reasonable “refund processing time”. 21 days, generally in a big corporation settings, has been considered reasonable by ACCC.

 

[muppet]

Sadly its the world we live in. Doubt any alternatives will get your money sooner.

I’d check the refund on offer, it may be less than if you cancel outright and buy a new economy fare.

 

[samas]

I've been booked in Business on one of the rare 737 in the schedule between PER-ADL and it has been changed to an economy only on the route.

I have too many flight change notifications in my email to find the right one, but I recall it was not extremely obvious. It might have been one of the "please call us to discuss your options" type.

Example PER-ADL in a 7 day period starting June 23rd there are the following services:
10x A320 economy only
4x 737 economy only
4x 737 with business (Tu,W,Th,Su)

it appears quite common for one of the few 737 with business to be swapped out to economy only.

I call up and the overseas call center and they couldn't understand what the problem was that I paid for business and now had an economy seat. It was very painful call but I basically asked how they could deliver me the service booked, being business from Perth to Adelaide on the day booked. After helping them figure out that there were no direct PER-ADL business the same day, the next two days or the previous day I asked to be swapped to PER-MEL-ADL on the day i was originally booked where business seats were available.

I recall getting responses like "that fare class is not available on those flights" but when eventually the agent, with help from escalation, understood they could override that due to the equipment change the next battle was they wanted us to pay a change fee, which then had me loop back to saying well if you can fly me in business at the time I booked I would prefer that.



Other time on another downgrade booking I just accepted a refund and rebooked myself in economy where the economy price ended up dropping.

I have not yet accepted a change with a downgrade so haven't yet experienced that and keen to avoid that path.


For my flights I add them into Flighty to get notifications on changes etc.

Have had a flightly notification a few weeks ago about this ADL-BNE being coming up being changed to a Fokker 100 where I'm booked in business but no J on the Fokkers. I am yet to receive any notification from VA so the "please check your SMS or email" in the dashboard seems a bit premature. Thanks to Flighty I have made alternative plans with the triple status credits offer and just waiting on this one to see how long it takes to notify me officially and to learn what they propose before I cancel for a refund. Flighty has paid for itself this year with this notifiation! (However without it I would have discovered it myself later when the TSC launched when I reviewed all future travel)

 

[Steven of Mysore]

I've been booked in Business on one of the rare 737 in the schedule between PER-ADL and it has been changed to an economy only on the route.

I have too many flight change notifications in my email to find the right one, but I recall it was not extremely obvious. It might have been one of the "please call us to discuss your options" type.

Example PER-ADL in a 7 day period starting June 23rd there are the following services:
10x A320 economy only
4x 737 economy only
4x 737 with business (Tu,W,Th,Su)

it appears quite common for one of the few 737 with business to be swapped out to economy only.

I call up and the overseas call center and they couldn't understand what the problem was that I paid for business and now had an economy seat. It was very painful call but I basically asked how they could deliver me the service booked, being business from Perth to Adelaide on the day booked. After helping them figure out that there were no direct PER-ADL business the same day, the next two days or the previous day I asked to be swapped to PER-MEL-ADL on the day i was originally booked where business seats were available.

I recall getting responses like "that fare class is not available on those flights" but when eventually the agent, with help from escalation, understood they could override that due to the equipment change the next battle was they wanted us to pay a change fee, which then had me loop back to saying well if you can fly me in business at the time I booked I would prefer that.



Other time on another downgrade booking I just accepted a refund and rebooked myself in economy where the economy price ended up dropping.

I have not yet accepted a change with a downgrade so haven't yet experienced that and keen to avoid that path.


For my flights I add them into Flighty to get notifications on changes etc.

Have had a flightly notification a few weeks ago about this ADL-BNE being coming up being changed to a Fokker 100 where I'm booked in business but no J on the Fokkers. I am yet to receive any notification from VA so the "please check your SMS or email" in the dashboard seems a bit premature. Thanks to Flighty I have made alternative plans with the triple status credits offer and just waiting on this one to see how long it takes to notify me officially and to learn what they propose before I cancel for a refund. Flighty has paid for itself this year with this notifiation! (However without it I would have discovered it myself later when the TSC launched when I reviewed all future travel)

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Given the Qantas reputational damage, I am astounded the VA do F all about their appalling call centre. Everytime I have reason to call, I get an anxiety moment. Half the time the background is full of noise and v the rest unhelpful responses

 

[Gold Member]

Given the Qantas reputational damage, I am astounded the VA do F all about their appalling call centre. Everytime I have reason to call, I get an anxiety moment. Half the time the background is full of noise and v the rest unhelpful responses

What does Qantas’ shattered reputation have to do with Virgin’s appalling call centre experience?

 

[RooFlyer]

What does Qantas’ shattered reputation have to do with Virgin’s appalling call centre experience?

I think the sentiment is that one would hope that Virginmight be proactive to fix their awful call Centre now that the damage has been done publicly to Qantas.

I had to book a simple J return flight yesterday over the phone because I couldn’t do it online and it took 30 minutes of excruciating holds and uncertainties.

 

[JohnK]

The law also allows for a reasonable “refund processing time”. 21 days, generally in a big corporation settings, has been considered reasonable by ACCC.

Not criticising your points but this is sadly the world we live in.

A business takes money immediately for a service it is going to provide in future but when trying to get refund it can take up to 21 days or in some businesses 6 weeks? Why so long? I don't have an endless supply of funds and I need that money.

It should not be OK. ACCC. Government. AFCA. FOS. Whoever. Force businesses to process refunds immediately.

 

[ben95]

It should not be OK. ACCC. Government. AFCA. FOS. Whoever. Force businesses to process refunds immediately.

100% agreed. We need stronger regulations.

The US has recently introduced much stricter regulations for refund/compensation after delays and cancellations. It includes that refunds must be processed within 7 business days for credit card purchases. We should follow their approach to make the criteria clear and not leave it up to the interpretation of what is “reasonable”

 

[Doctore1003]

Consumer Affairs / ACCC can’t help you. They don’t get involved in minor individual cases. At best they will record the complaint and it could inform future policy change.

 

[SeaWolf]

Consumer Affairs / ACCC can’t help you. They don’t get involved in minor individual cases. At best they will record the complaint and it could inform future policy change.

Even if they did, by the time it was looked at, all the back and forth was completed and a resolution was reached, the flight will have long passed and the refund will have been processed anyway.

 

[JohnK]

Even if they did, by the time it was looked at, all the back and forth was completed and a resolution was reached, the flight will have long passed and the refund will have been processed anyway.

Compensation?

For a lot of businesses they don't want to let complaints reach AFCA/FOS etc as it can be very costly.

I made a huge fuss over an $11 fee to port my number away from TPG that I ported to them free of charge. I promised to escalate the issue and the cost to them for first complaint was $42 and if not resolved then $250? They waived the fee they were trying to charge me. It wasn't the money. It was the principle.

Similar issue with Belong.

If you threaten they're scared. We need something similar for refund processing. I think our refund processing is pretty much instant.

 

[Lemon_Party]

Given the Qantas reputational damage, I am astounded the VA do F all about their appalling call centre. Everytime I have reason to call, I get an anxiety moment. Half the time the background is full of noise and v the rest unhelpful responses

I’ve found the VA call centre to be great - almost always put through to someone helpful and who can resolve issues.

 

[Happy Dude]

@ferntree It does stink that they have you over a barrel regarding the timing of the refund. Within 21 days of the change, not after the flight, should be the absolute worst they should do. The one time it happened to me - on the day I was meant to fly, as opposed to well in advance - they did refund within three weeks.

Not sure if you've been told the amount to be refunded, but it's possible your bigger battle may be the amount of refund you receive.

I was satisfied with the amount VA deemed to be the difference between the J fare I paid and whatever Y fare they used. I now take a screenshot of the prices/fare options when booking J. Any amount less than the difference between J and Choice would be unacceptable.

 

[Carrots]

It's not really a scam... it's just pathetic that so many businesses are the same. Take the money in a click, but want a refund and that can take weeks instead of minutes.

Cynically I'd suggest it's using your creditors as a loan stream, which is wrong.

But what is really unconscionable conduct though - is the airlines who only refund the difference between the full fare economy ticket price and J fare. Too bad if you could've booked a discounted economy ticket (ie Choice or Red-e-Deal) for a quarter of the price originally (if not even less).

 

[SeaWolf]

But what is really unconscionable conduct though - is the airlines only refund the difference between the full fare economy ticket price and J fare.

I don't think that's the case with Virgin.

My Disappointing Virgin Australia Downgrade Experience

I was involuntarily downgraded from a paid Business Class ticket to Economy on a Virgin Australia flight. It took two months and multiple follow-up phone calls to receive a refund of the fare difference.

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

There's an article from last year about this that says:

Virgin Australia confirmed that the refund amount for involuntary cabin downgrades is calculated as the difference between the Business fare originally paid and the lowest Economy Choice fare that was available on the same route at the time of booking.

 

[Carrots]

I don't think that's the case with Virgin.

My Disappointing Virgin Australia Downgrade Experience

I was involuntarily downgraded from a paid Business Class ticket to Economy on a Virgin Australia flight. It took two months and multiple follow-up phone calls to receive a refund of the fare difference.

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

There's an article from last year about this that says:

I suspect the VA issue is more finance and/or poor systems driven. Although in the past I've seen some poor credits for downgrades (usually driven by delayed flights and lounge ladies moving me to direct or alternate times to avoid missed connections etc.

 

[SeaWolf]

I suspect the VA issue is more finance and/or poor systems driven.

I reckon that's definitely the case. I can understand not refunding until the flight is taken as things like an equipment change might get reversed or the customer might move to another flight. Taking 21 days afterwards to process the refund does sound like a long time, though I suspect that might be "up to 21 days" and the refund might well happen faster.

 

[ferntree]

Thanks to everyone who has replied.

Seems I have little choice other than to lick my wounds .

 

[trippin_the_rift]

"We will refund you the fare difference" is the biggest cough***, borderline illegal scam going on in the the airline industry right now (not saying VA does this - but typically this is what happens):

Here is how it the con works:

• You book business class, for say, $1000
• The airline, at this stage, is heavily incentivized to overbook business class, says hey, we gotta downgrade you to economy class, but we'll refund you the difference. Sounds ok in theory, but here is where you get shafted.
• The "fare difference" is calculated as follows:
• The price you paid, minus whatever the cost of a full flex economy ticket is on the day of departure = your refund.
• They DO NOT refund the difference between what the cheapest economy ticket was on the day that you purchased your business class ticket (which is what it should be -- and what most people expect).
• Your refund might look like this: $1000 (your original business class ticket that you booked 6 months in advance on sale), minus the price of a full fare economy ticket on the day of departure: $750 (this is the most expensive economy class fare that almost nobody ever purchases - and one that you sure as heck would not buy), = $250 refund.
• Keeping in mind, that on the day that you originally booked your $1000 business class ticket, economy class was also on sale for $179. So you had the option to pay $179, but decided to opt for the $1000 ticket.

This scam has been going on in Australia for years.
Airlines are incentivized to overbook and then downgrade passengers -- profiting at your expense from the downgrade.

Here's another example:
You book biz class.
Last minute, the airline decides that a VIP needs your seat.
You get downgraded.
Airline keeps the high-yield full economy value of your ticket.
Airline keeps the VIP happy.

In this example the airline wins twice at your expense.
If you're ultra-lucky - you might get a few points, which, don't come close to the representative value of your loss OR of what the airline gained by keeping a VIP happy.

This happens A LOT.

What needs to happen is the following:
If for whatever reason the airline downgrades the cabin you are booked in - you are provided, within 24 hours, a 5x cash reimbursement of the value of that sector you were downgraded in.

Airlines should never be incentivized to downgrade people, and they should never profit from it like they do today.