What's the point? [VA fares > 50% more than Jetstar]

[Maccaj73]

Agree 100% VFF is as good as dead... I already thought as a program VFF was well behind QFF last year but now with 737 only, no alliance or even partners at the moment, reduced destinations, talk of moving further down market.... forget it, I regret being loyal all these years and spending my time building status and a points balance to now be offered this. No breath has been expended even trying to reassure high tier members of good things to come.

 

[hossein_au]

If you tick that box, at the very beginning, you pay for the whole fare with points, no slider at the end, you just pay for taxes with the credit or debit card, or poli.
...

AustralianPoochie, this is THE absolute worst use of the points. I will not use my points for Points+Pay unless I have ZERO other option and ZERO time left; and even then I will feel cheated.

 

[RAM]

Agree 100% VFF is as good as dead... I already thought as a program VFF was well behind QFF last year but now with 737 only, no alliance or even partners at the moment, reduced destinations, talk of moving further down market.... forget it, I regret being loyal all these years and spending my time building status and a points balance to now be offered this. No breath has been expended even trying to reassure high tier members of good things to come.

Have to wait and see what VA Mk II is once the Court approval date & appeal thereof come & go.

Curious your thoughts on VFF vs QFF as normally on any calculated comparison - VFF was found to represent better value for most permutations - as QFF's RPP policy on 'fees & charges' could see QFF points redemptions coming out with a cash 'fees & charges' component nearly as much as just booking a cash only flight.

The ability to transfer points to SIA is/was a clear winner from our perspective as the ready availablilty of 2 business or 2 first class seats to/from most European destinations (if you planned ahead) far outshone what could be achieved via QFF.

Here's hoping.

 

[hossein_au]

Have to wait and see what VA Mk II is once the Court approval date & appeal thereof come & go.

Curious your thoughts on VFF vs QFF as normally on any calculated comparison - VFF was found to represent better value for most permutations - as QFF's RPP policy on 'fees & charges' could see QFF points redemptions coming out with a cash 'fees & charges' component nearly as much as just booking a cash only flight.

The ability to transfer points to SIA is/was a clear winner from our perspective as the ready availablilty of 2 business or 2 first class seats to/from most European destinations (if you planned ahead) far outshone what could be achieved via QFF.

Here's hoping.

Agree on your 1st paragraph.

True that VA, in distant past, used to represent much better value due to the fact you have stated in your 2nd paragraph. Although I like to note that in the last year or so of VA Mk I, new fees and charges were introduced, almost on par with those of QF (a little lower in some routes and a little higher in others). So the value proposition of VFF against QFF went from almost-universally superior to almost-universally in the same ball park figure. Furthermore, VFF used to release a lot more rewards seats in comparison to QFF, but alas, they went very stingy around the same time they introduced the aforementioned fees and charges.

Very true on your last para; I continue to kick myself for missing the opportunity to transfer my last lot of VFF to SQ. I have about 400k VFF left :-(

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Clearly Velocity want more transfer into it’s coffers....new offer of bonus points and SC announced lol

......I wonder if anyone would do that given the current scene. VFF is trying hard to attract members however the ground reality does not support the cause. Sad enough to say but RIP VFF ....

Agree 100% VFF is as good as dead.............

The Velocity playbook is old and outdated. They're wasting ammunition on campaigns like this when they could have focused on things which Qantas can't copy, and gone after the big $$$ with the banks. But no - same old campaigns.

Only a matter of time before Tiger2 is gone.

 

[oh_lol]

AustralianPoochie, this is THE absolute worst use of the points. I will not use my points for Points+Pay unless I have ZERO other option and ZERO time left; and even then I will feel cheated.

Wait now I'm confused. It's better to use full points, or minimum points and pay the rest?

 

[hossein_au]

Wait now I'm confused. It's better to use full points, or minimum points and pay the rest?

There are a plethora of articles about the 'value' of points. As a general rule of thumb, the best value is had when booking 'classic' rewards in business or first class for long-haul flights. Also, 'classic' rewards in domestic business gives you good value (if that is your thing). At times, I have had great value out of points booking short-notice 'classic' domestic flights in economy (when cash prices are astronomical).

Point+Pay is appalling value regardless of whether you pay minimum or maximum number of points.

 

[andye]

There are a plethora of articles about the 'value' of points. As a general rule of thumb, the best value is had when booking 'classic' rewards in business or first class for long-haul flights. Also, 'classic' rewards in domestic business gives you good value (if that is your thing). At times, I have had great value out of points booking short-notice 'classic' domestic flights in economy (when cash prices are astronomical).

Point+Pay is appalling value regardless of whether you pay minimum or maximum number of points.

Poster may be referring to paying "taxes" on Award Seat. It depends on how you value points. In the old days, paying cash for the taxes was usually the better value. Probably a closer call now

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

Wait now I'm confused. It's better to use full points, or minimum points and pay the rest?

Normally value for points is important but my view at the moment is to get any value out of your Velocity points while you can. So it’s probably going to be a balancing act of what’s available, what value option are there and when you’re free to travel

 

[hossein_au]

Normally value for points is important but my view at the moment is to get any value out of your Velocity points while you can. So it’s probably going to be a balancing act of what’s available, what value option are there and when you’re free to travel

You are correct in that one is probably better off getting 'any' value out of VFF (and run). But I propose that buying a toaster gives one a value similar to using the points for Points+Pay; and I further propose a toaster is a longer-lasting "value" than a flight you might not have taken if it wasn't to burn the points...

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

You are correct in that one is probably better off getting 'any' value out of VFF (and run). But I propose that buying a toaster gives one a value similar to using the points for Points+Pay; and I further propose a toaster is a longer-lasting "value" than a flight you might not have taken if it wasn't to burn the points...

Sure, but the OP sounded like they were going regardless and was wondering why bother paying 50% more. So theoretically the value on an overpriced trip might be enough v toaster.

 

[dajop]

The Velocity playbook is old and outdated. They're wasting ammunition on campaigns like this when they could have focused on things which Qantas can't copy, and gone after the big $$$ with the banks. But no - same old campaigns.

Do you think that will change once Bain fully take the reins? To uninformed amateur, it would seem that the main item of value (for flipping) is the Velocity program.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Do you think that will change once Bain fully take the reins? To uninformed amateur, it would seem that the main item of value (for flipping) is the Velocity program.

The value of Velocity is intrinsically linked to VA maintaining the network and airline partnerships.

Qantas Loyalty profits down 10% in FY 2020.
Velocity is down 30% FY 2020.

That should tell us something about consumer confidence in each airline/program.

The Qatar status match effectively cost Velocity xx,xx_ top-tier members, and Velocity DID NOTHING to mitigate that damage. The financial pain of the status match won't be felt until the borders open up again and companies allow their employees to travel and they, simply go QF instead of VA.
Velocity needs a new strategy if they're to retain meaningful value in the program and that strategy won't include 'transfer points from your bank and get a bonus'.

Here's a good article (ok, by me!) about airline loyalty predictions for 2021: 5 Predictions for Airline Loyalty in 2021

Bain has a challenge on their hands and it's going to be even more difficult when if REX launches a loyalty program in March.

 

[hossein_au]

The value of Velocity is intrinsically linked to VA maintaining the network and airline partnerships.

Qantas Loyalty profits down 10% in FY 2020.
Velocity is down 30% FY 2020.

That should tell us something about consumer confidence in each airline/program.

The Qatar status match effectively cost Velocity xx,xx_ top-tier members, and Velocity DID NOTHING to mitigate that damage. The financial pain of the status match won't be felt until the borders open up again and companies allow their employees to travel and they, simply go QF instead of VA.
Velocity needs a new strategy if they're to retain meaningful value in the program and that strategy won't include 'transfer points from your bank and get a bonus'.

Here's a good article (ok, by me!) about airline loyalty predictions for 2021: 5 Predictions for Airline Loyalty in 2021

Bain has a challenge on their hands and it's going to be even more difficult when if REX launches a loyalty program in March.

I enjoyed reading your post (as always).

One fundamental assumption in your post is that Bain's 'strategic goal' would include 'sustainability of the business', 'long-term growth', 'being competitive in the marketplace', and the like.

I think we may need to rethink their strategic objective. They have shown they do not care about perception, long-term loyalty, etc. This was proved by the bait-and-switch they demonstrated last month.

I think, like most other big equity-firms, Bain is in 'it' to squeeze as much juice as they can out of VA, and then discard the pulp. If this is indeed their strategic goal, none of the 'issues' you have identified in your post are actual issues, as they do not materially distract from achieving Bain's strategic objective.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

I enjoyed reading your post (as always).

One fundamental assumption in your post is that Bain's 'strategic goal' would include 'sustainability of the business', 'long-term growth', 'being competitive in the marketplace', and the like.

I think we may need to rethink their strategic goal. They have shown they do not care about perception, long-term loyalty, etc. This was proved by the bait-and-switch they demonstrated last month.

I think, like most other big equity-firms, Bain is in 'it' to squeeze as much juice as they can out of VA, and then discard the pulp. If this is indeed their strategic goal, none of the 'issues' you have identified in your post are actual issues, as they do not materially distract from achieving Bain's strategic goals.

One thing I've learned with loyalty programs is that what looks good on the whiteboard does not necessarily work in the real world.
Loyalty programs are 70% art, 30% science/business. Bain could easily pump up the Velocity value well into the billions - but they'd be smart enough to put the right people in and then get out of the way, because, 'business logic' would destroy the value for the airline....... Aeromexico Premier Miles.....Air Asia BIG.......Air Canada Aeroplan....... Lufthansa Group Miles & More.....Avianca Lifemiles. There's plenty of examples where trying to milk loyalty by running it purely for profit destroys the airline, and thus, backfires on loyalty valuations.

Whatever happens with Bain and Velocity - we're in for a ride!

 

[hossein_au]

One thing I've learned with loyalty programs is that what looks good on the whiteboard does not necessarily work in the real world.
Loyalty programs are 70% art, 30% science/business. Bain could easily pump up the Velocity value well into the billions - but they'd be smart enough to put the right people in and then get out of the way, because, 'business logic' would destroy the value for the airline....... Aeromexico Premier Miles.....Air Asia BIG.......Air Canada Aeroplan....... Lufthansa Group Miles & More.....Avianca Lifemiles. There's plenty of examples where trying to milk loyalty by running it purely for profit destroys the airline, and thus, backfires on loyalty valuations.

I agree 100% with principle of what you wrote, but I note you still presume Bain is interested in the 'long-term' game. I take a guess that Bain is not in it for long term: make as much as you can before it hits the fan and move on quickly... ('Infinite game' versus 'finite game' in game/management theory).

This is not my endorsement of what is happening; merely an analysis of the observations so far...

Whatever happens with Bain and Velocity - we're in for a ride!

That's for sure

 

[RAM]

I enjoyed reading your post (as always).

One fundamental assumption in your post is that Bain's 'strategic goal' would include 'sustainability of the business', 'long-term growth', 'being competitive in the marketplace', and the like.

I think we may need to rethink their strategic objective. They have shown they do not care about perception, long-term loyalty, etc. This was proved by the bait-and-switch they demonstrated last month.

I think, like most other big equity-firms, Bain is in 'it' to squeeze as much juice as they can out of VA, and then discard the pulp. If this is indeed their strategic goal, none of the 'issues' you have identified in your post are actual issues, as they do not materially distract from achieving Bain's strategic objective.

....and the only way they can achieve a decent return is to make VFF a compelling proposition.

No surprise VFF's profits fell vs QFF's drop. However remember VFF is/was fully cash backed vs QFF is not.

Similarly the flow of media/talking head coverage was predominantly 'It is the end of the world as we know it'.

AJ was quite happy to help those sentiments until ASIC announced they were investigating. Since then we've heard nothing from ASIC & pretty much nothing volunteered by AJ on VA failing in Vn II.

Similar to all the huffing & puffing by the 2 $2 companies that between them scored over 60 articles on how they were going to pull out VA from Bain or force Bain to pay them out 80 cents or more per $$. Wishful thinking & blind media support over substance.

Many vested interests (including Q who is even money to go into VA itself IMHO) want to put the knife in as far as possible before Bain gets Court final approval and can begin to show their hand. Time for AJ to get himself a set of worry beads!

 

[dajop]

The value of Velocity is intrinsically linked to VA maintaining the network and airline partnerships.

Yes agreed, and thanks for the link to your discussion, makes an interesting read.

Do you think one of the big challenges for Velocity will be making the program attractive enough with a smaller airline footprint, particularly those after aspirational rewards (such as long haul premium travel)? SQ was a big asset to VA1/Velocity, where SQ did make more premium awards available to VA than most, if not all, of its other partners (not to mention the points transfer). With that probably gone and VA long haul gone, what will they have to get people excited about them? I guess there's EY as well, but they are also shrinking their footprint (and for those of us in the know we could even "buy" EY seats via AAdvantage). Or will Bain cede these to QF, and focus more on those seeking a monetary value type benefit?

 

[mrmerc500]

VA have released a WA sale although I would argue that the fares are $10 - $40 more expensive than previously expected.

Recent Broome sale with Government Funding was $199, Adelaide would of originally been $169 - $179, Brisbane closer to the $200 mark & Kalgoorlie for under $150 so this sale isn’t anything exciting!

The only route covered by JQ is Adelaide which looks suitably placed @ $30 below VA although when you add baggage, it’s an equal offering so it will be interesting to see what VA’s economy service ends up being.

 

[eastwest101]

Before everyone gets carried away saying that there is no point in flying VA I did a reality check about actual typical fares - albeit with the proviso that the future of Velocity as a loyalty program is very reduced from where it was. The fact is that no-one is flying internationally anywhere at the moment, and domestically due to Covid restrictions its difficult to fly a lot of places at all without onerous 14 day isolation, Virgin lounges remain closed and Qantas lounges are on reduced hours and availability, the long term future and profitability of both Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin are all in doubt and we would be expecting major "enhancements" to both the QFF and the Velocity loyalty programs in the future, the Y product is all essentially the same (narrowbody 3+3 Y seating with 29"-31" seat pitch).

With all that in mind - have a look at this randomly chosen basket of Economy Y class flights that it is possible to book and fly, and consider the mathematics and the choices here for a BFOD or indeed leisure traveller (for simplicity I compared return flights 1 week later from departure), note all prices shown are return airfares.



Sort of blows the illusion of Jetstar being the cheapest option, and the theme seems to be that the Virgin and Jetstar fares overall are pretty much on par once you include all the bundles and seat selection fares etc, it looks like Qantas is able to maintain a fare premium over both Virgin Australia and Jetstar at the moment so that loyalty, status and access to the Qantas lounges does have a tangible "cost" that can be measured.

Domestically - If you care about lounges, nicer food and status then its a "no brainer" to book Qantas at the moment, if you care about lowest fare and don't care about status, food and lounges then you would be better booking Virgin at the moment. If you want to pay more, get gouged with fees to earn status and pay to sit where you want (pretty important to some people with Covid concerns) and don't have a choice (i.e. a lot of Jetstar only routes around at the moment) the you would fly Jetstar.