Who should take precendence - terms and conditions ambiguous

[fiscal]

Hi All,

Just spent the last 30 minutes reading some very engaging threads and it reminded me I was going to ask a question about the terms and conditions of the QFF program for a particular situation.

My wife and I are traveling from PER to LHR and return in Nov/Dec. We have managed to secure F seats for the long haul sectors, but as no J seats were available (A330) for the short haul sectors, we had to accept Y class for the time being. Points for F class seats for the entire journey were duly redeemed.

For some reason, allocation of J class seats on the PER - SIN route are very thin on the ground (except for Feb 2010 for some strange reason when 17 days availability is presently shown, instead of the usual 3 or 4 per month).

A look at Expert Flyer shows plenty of J seat availability for flights coming up in the next month.

Now let us make two assumptions. One that sufficient seats are NOT sold, and therefore there are seats available to be allocated. Let us further assume that these seats are NOT released as FF seats.

Now we all know that there is, of course, another group of people eagerly eyeing off these seats, the upgrade requesters. The better their status, the better their chances.

However, from my perspective, I have to ask the question, should I have any precendence or priority over upgrade requests, having already redeemed points for a permium seat. Those requesting upgrades do not redeem points until the day of the flight, assuming they are sucessful.

The terms and conditions of the QFF program are a little ambiguous, and it seems that they presently favour the upgrade requests. The seat itself is still redeemed with points, so is it fair to say that someone who has already paid (as in points) for a seat that was not available at the time of booking, should get priority over upgrades?

Let me know your thoughts.

PS The QFF CSR said she would forward my concerns to the legal dept - not heard back yet.

Thanks

 

[serfty]

Whatever the considerations of fairness may be; with the current arrangemnt of the QFF program, the upgraders would get priority if no award J seats open up.

It's up to you to keep looking for those elusive J connections. If you do find them be prepared to pay an additional 2½K QFF point per PAX change fee in order to snaffle them.

 

[oz_mark]

The terms and conditions of the QFF program are a little ambiguous, and it seems that they presently favour the upgrade requests. The seat itself is still redeemed with points, so is it fair to say that someone who has already paid (as in points) for a seat that was not available at the time of booking, should get priority over upgrades?

While I understand your argument, I do not believe that the T&C's are on your side.

 

[simongr]

I don't think it is precedence, it is about revenue maximisation. I don't think QF are holding back seats from awards to provide seats for upgraders. I think that the only reason that QF don't release seats for awards is that they think they can sell them for cash.

If the seats havent been sold 5 hours before departure then they can release seats for upgraders as at that point it is not possible to redeem an award.

QF don't have a legal obligation to make seats available to anyone - you or upgraders.

 

[fiscal]

Whatever the considerations of fairness may be; with the current arrangemnt of the QFF program, the upgraders would get priority if no award J seats open up.

It's up to you to keep looking for those elusive J connections. If you do find them be prepared to pay an additional 2½K QFF point per PAX change fee in order to snaffle them.

You are quite correct on the first point, and yes we look on the QF site twice a day, and three times on a Sunday<bg>

The 5 hour flight is not that much of a problem, and we do it often enough in Y class to know how best to pass the time.

We had two choices at the time of booking. Either to potentially lose the benefit of 60,000 points, or pay $900+ in extra fees by making two bookings (and thus save points)

We chose the former.

 

[medhead]

Really this is a more philosophical question than a question about QF obligations or terms and conditions. I think it is good question. Clearly the black and white rules would suggest that the upgraders will get the seats. Fair enough that is how QF operate - they are not obligated to provide award seats and they are totally entitled to try to sell their seats.

But at the 5 hours mark when they decide to release seats as an award, I think it is fair, in a natural justice sense, that the person who has already paid for a premium seat be given first bite of the cherry. Sure they have to pay the full points for an F redeemption PER - LHR and get a Y seat if QF haven't release F or J seats. But that equation changes when QF later decide to release the J seat for redeemption, in a general sense.

note: I'm not talk about the specifics of the current T&C or QF policy. I just think this is a worthwhile question in terms of fairness to all QF FFs. Please let us know what the QF lawyers think.

 

[fiscal]

Really this is a more philosophical question than a question about QF obligations or terms and conditions.......

note: I'm not talk about the specifics of the current T&C or QF policy. I just think this is a worthwhile question in terms of fairness to all QF FFs. Please let us know what the QF lawyers think.

That was the purpose of the question, just to open up discussion. Nothing ever gets changed unless you ask.

But then again, my mother always used to say "Ask, dont get, dont ask, dont want" <sigh> typical

 

[drron]

One of the reasons I am no longer in QFF as my major programs.I am yet to get a RTW premium award with QF where every sector has been in a premium cabin.Last was 2 J awards and on QF JFK-LAX were in Y.On the day we asked at checkin-of course knocked back.Nothing had shown up as available in the months before.On the day a grand total of 7 pax in J.
Funny that if you upgrade you only get the points for original booked cabin.If downgraded you pay the points or cash of original cabin booked.See you really can have your cake and eat it to.

 

[jamesatfish]

One of the reasons I am no longer in QFF as my major programs.I am yet to get a RTW premium award with QF where every sector has been in a premium cabin.Last was 2 J awards and on QF JFK-LAX were in Y.On the day we asked at checkin-of course knocked back.Nothing had shown up as available in the months before.On the day a grand total of 7 pax in J.

I've never had this situation with QF, but as part of a RTW F awards ticket over Christmas we had two seats booked on an AA flight JFK-MIA in Y as there was no First awards availability when we booked the tickets (and on several occasions before we started the trip where we called to re-check).

When I checked EF the night before I noticed there were a few First seats available on the flight, so at checkin I explained the situation to the AA agent who simply confirmed the availability and moved our booking into First.

This was about 3 hours prior to the flight so I guess we jumped the queue of people who had requested upgrades and were waiting for them to clear.

I'm not sure if having OWE status made any difference or if that's standard practice on AA.

 

[NM]

The facts here are you have a ticket issued for travel in the economy cabin. That means you are entitled to a boarding pass and seat in the economy cabin. It makes not difference how much you paid and using what method. So if there are business class seats available, the usual method of processing upgrades will be undertaken in the 24 hours before departure. You will have absolutely no claim on any empty business class seat at that point.

The only way to change is if Qantas does in fact release business class redemption seats before 24 hours departure. You will then have to cancel the existing ticket and have a new ticket issued. Now that may mean any other sectors on the original ticket may no longer be available for redemption after you cancel the original ticket.

The best thing you could have done at the time of booking was to book as individual sectors or PER-SIN-PER in Y (X actually) and SIN-LHR-SIN in F (P actually). Then if J (U) became available on the PER-SIN-PER segments you could cancel and rebook, wearing the cancellation penalty.

But that would have cost more in fuel surcharges and you would then have two separate tickets so technically may not be protected if the connection fails.

 

[simongr]

Well this upgrader didnt come through - J9, D9 and I9 and no points upgrade for a PS...

 

[munitalP]

To me it's obvious, the person with the highest FF status should get the upgrade.

The FF status says "preimum customer" - "treat them well"

Mr!

:-|

 

[straitman]

The FF status says "preimum customer" - "treat them well"

Mr!

:-|

munitalP,

Have you been attending NM's spelling school :?:

 

[NM]

munitalP,

Have you been attending NM's spelling school :?:

nahh, just my tpying scholl

 

[Batesy]

My wife and I are traveling from PER to LHR and return in Nov/Dec. We have managed to secure F seats for the long haul sectors, but as no J seats were available (A330) for the short haul sectors, we had to accept Y class for the time being. Points for F class seats for the entire journey were duly redeemed.



Thanks[/quote]
I am al ittle confused. If no J or F available ( I know no F from PER) Why would you have not booked two seperate award flights. in in Y to SIN and then a seperate F from SIN -LHR? Much less points required.

 

[fiscal]

Why would you have not booked two seperate award flights. in in Y to SIN and then a seperate F from SIN -LHR? Much less points required.

There were two considerations.

1. The additional fees on two bookings amounted to just over $900.
2. Having a through ticket helps if there are delays and connecting flights are missed.

So the 60,000 extra points seemed a better alternative, and also if J seats do become available, it is only a change fee we need to pay.

It is such a pity that QF/BA stopped the PER-LHR flights all those years ago. Being reduced to a feeder service has made it a lot harder to obtain premium seats. If I live in SYD or MEL I can still get F class seats for the whole journey around the time we are going - the difference between a 2 class and 3/4 class aircraft?

 

[JohnK]

However, from my perspective, I have to ask the question, should I have any precendence or priority over upgrade requests, having already redeemed points for a permium seat. Those requesting upgrades do not redeem points until the day of the flight, assuming they are sucessful.

I am not aware what is in the terms and conditions but personally I would think the right thing to do in this situation would be to put the person who redeemed a premium award in F at the top of the upgrade request list to J.

I hope the business class seats come through for you....

 

[munitalP]

munitalP,

Have you been attending NM's spelling school :?:

are thers sumfing rong wif me spillin? :shock:

I am not aware what is in the terms and conditions but personally I would think the right thing to do in this situation would be to put the person who redeemed a premium award in F at the top of the upgrade request list to J.

I hope the business class seats come through for you....

See, thats what makes us all apart as humans, I strongly disagree with that...

Award seats can be taken by anyone and can be purchased by anyone (with enough points) - hence my reason for the disagreement...

I would hate to know that "old mate" (not infering the OP in any way) who fly's twice a year got upgraded before me who fly's at least weekly because "old mate" spent a cough load of AMEX points on a F ticket to LHR.

The entitlement as far as I am concerned is for the available leg hence purchased.

OPUP's are for frequent flyers - with status IMHO

If the purchaser of the F ticket was also a high status flyer with that airline, then if it was a play off between someone else who had equal status with him who wasn't connecting to or from a F ticket, I would then agree that the F ticket holder should get preference.

Mr!

:-|

 

[NM]

I am not aware what is in the terms and conditions but personally I would think the right thing to do in this situation would be to put the person who redeemed a premium award in F at the top of the upgrade request list to J.

I hope the business class seats come through for you....

The person with an FF redemption ticket issued in X (economy cabin) has agreed at the time of "purchasing" the ticket to travel in the economy cabin. The fare rules associated with an award redemption ticket do not allow for waitlisting for a higher cabin nor for FF award upgrades. So I see no reason that the FF redeemer has any claim on an unsold business class seat nor any reason to be considered for an upgrade ahead of any passenger who has purchased an upgradeable ticket and has waitlisted for a points upgrade.

 

[fiscal]

The person with an FF redemption ticket issued in X (economy cabin) has agreed at the time of "purchasing" the ticket to travel in the economy cabin. The fare rules associated with an award redemption ticket do not allow for waitlisting for a higher cabin nor for FF award upgrades. So I see no reason that the FF redeemer has any claim on an unsold business class seat nor any reason to be considered for an upgrade ahead of any passenger who has purchased an upgradeable ticket and has waitlisted for a points upgrade.

The last three or so posts show that healthy debate clearly shines a light on the different expectations of FF's, and that is a good thing.

Perhaps to move the discussions in a slightly different direction, we should now ask the question about the terms and conditions relating to the charging of a redemption, when a single class is not available for the whole journey.

Why do Qantas charge you the higher rate in the first place? You can change the date and the class of travel at any time, and for that privilege, of course, you are charged a change fee. So what is the rationale behind Qantas charging the higher rate for the whole journey?