Why can’t QF codeshare with AA on transatlantic flights to cater for the West AUS <> East USA market?

[TeaKozy]

From what I can see the time savings yielded don't really justify upending their existing approach of funnelling traffic via the east coast. Flying PER-BOS for instance is much of a muchness time-wise, even accounting for the extra stop. Not to mention the impact of mis-connects on a delayed QF9 (which at 76% delays isn't unlikely) and that it's likely much more commercially favourable for them to fill the MEL and SYD-DFW flights and only need to buy a shorter domestic sector from AA.

Loyalists will always fly QF, regardless of how many stops. I'm quite sure they know this. There's clearly more money to be had pushing everybody east.

 

[justinbrett]

I’m not sure why everyone’s centred only on PER-LHR. They’ll start flying year round to Paris very soon and fly seasonal to Rome. While I hope that PER-CDG is as profitable as PER-LHR, I doubt it would be. Empty seats can be filled by PER passengers flying to CDG and connecting to AA there. In addition to LHR and FCO.

What a waste of limited seats to CDG/FCO. QF doesn't have daily rights for either airport. QF has already said it wants daily on CDG.

Leave them for O/D pax.

Well, at least have seamless connections from QF to AA in CDG/LHR/FCO (on an AA code) loaded on the QF website. But even that isn’t happening. I think it could allow Qantas to dramatically grow or even dominate the market between Perth and the eastern USA.

It’s an easy and simple solution that doesn’t require any additional aircraft or routes and gives the ME carriers a run for their money.

It's just as seamless without the codeshare -though via LHR, AA will be better than BA as they use the same terminal. Arguably it's better for the pax on the operating flight number as codeshare flights can limit things like seat selection or at least make them more difficult.

It's a nice idea but the desired effect can be achieved already with operating flight numbers. I would like to see QF offer SYD-LHR-JFK-SYD fares when sunrise launches (for pax that want to go to both stops, not just transit), but even then, the transatlantic flight doesn't need to be on a codeshare.

 

[elanshin]

I’m not sure why everyone’s centred only on PER-LHR. They’ll start flying year round to Paris very soon and fly seasonal to Rome. While I hope that PER-CDG is as profitable as PER-LHR, I doubt it would be. Empty seats can be filled by PER passengers flying to CDG and connecting to AA there. In addition to LHR and FCO.

Because it's the only flight that actually exists right now as of today. You don't start hatching plans and putting it into motion before the other flights even launch.

If you made this thread in 2025 where we can see how the QF flights for CDG/FCO are going, there may be a different story. Maybe WA has spent a buttload of money on a new tourism campaign. For now though QF still only has 1 launched flight to Europe. The rest is only forward bookings. What if (I would hope not) has one of their 787s taken out of action indefinitely. That would almost certainly mean one of these routes isn't going ahead.

 

[dajop]

What a waste of limited seats to CDG/FCO. QF doesn't have daily rights for either airport. QF has already said it wants daily on CDG.

Leave them for O/D pax.

Not just O/D pax but close enough to O/D traffic. Probably some east coast pax that will take the PER connection, which is of course all QF revenue and with the AF linkage there’s probably also short haul connections via CDG which still keeps most of the revenue for the service in-house compared to transatlantic.

 

[RSVKanga]

it could be that LHR does great and FCO/CDG flop

How is FCO “flop”? It’s an existing seasonal service. QF have stated it’s strongly profitable in the peak season where it operated in 2022/23. But it’s the EU government not giving Australia its fair share of flight rights that prevents Qantas from making it a year round service. I hope that changes soon. I’m sure they would like to make it year round. There are also restrictions on Paris.

If FCO is year round then I’d expect it to be very profitable overall but demand would be less in non-peak seasons so they’d be a few empty seats which could be used for people flying to the USA from Perth. As for CDG we will have to wait and see.

 

[justinbrett]

Not just O/D pax but close enough to O/D traffic. Probably some east coast pax that will take the PER connection, which is of course all QF revenue and with the AF linkage there’s probably also short haul connections via CDG which still keeps most of the revenue for the service in-house compared to transatlantic.

I meant O/D on the Euro side, with connections throughout Australia.

 

[elanshin]

How is FCO “flop”? It’s an existing seasonal service. QF have stated it’s strongly profitable in the peak season when it operated in 2022/23. But it’s the EU government not giving Australia its fair share of flight rights which prevents Qantas from making it a year round service. I hope that changes soon. There are also restrictions on Paris.

I never said it was a flop - just that the route isnt stable all year round. Given limited supply at peak periods doing well isn't the same as doing well year round. they may try to launch it all year and find it can't sustain.

If FCO is year round then I’d expect it to be very profitable overall but demand would be less in non-peak seasons so they’d be a few empty seats which could be used for people flying to the USA from Perth. As for CDG we will have to wait and see.

I'm sure you could share your modelling with QF as to why they should launch this route year long if its profitable. Also would you know what the numbers are for FCO that are actually coming from SYD/MEL/BNE - PER - FCO? rather than just PER? If its significant, why would any of them want to onfly to US East Coast? if it's a big holiday, xONEx again is a much superior product or other T/A assisted itinerary.

And again you haven't addressed two key issues - who is this flight for? is it literally just for WA residents wanting a holiday in East Coast US? What's in it for AA - it's lopsided to QF for benefits. There will hardly be any demand from US East Coast to WA.

 

[Himeno]

How is FCO “flop”? It’s an existing seasonal service. QF have stated it’s strongly profitable in the peak season where it operated in 2022/23. But it’s the EU government not giving Australia its fair share of flight rights that prevents Qantas from making it a year round service. I hope that changes soon. I’m sure they would like to make it year round. There are also restrictions on Paris.

There is nothing in the air service agreement with Italy that prevents QF from having year round flights to Rome. Australian airlines are allowed 7 flights per week to Italy, of which Qantas holds 3 of them.
The only thing preventing QF from having daily year round flights to Rome is QF.

Mainland France is limited to 3.0 "units" per week. A "unit" is based on the amount of seats on the aircraft used. 200 - 239 seats (the QF 787 has 236) is 0.5 units. They would be allowed 6 flights/week with the current agreement.
Qantas only asked for 2.0 units. To get daily flights to Paris, QF would need to use an aircraft with less then 200 seats.

The air service agreements with European nations are bilaterals. To change them, the Australian government needs to talk to the government of the EU member state in question.
The "EU Government" doesn't deal with these things. They'll only do an EU wide open skies agreement, which Australia hasn't asked for.

 

[Quickstatus]

Too bad. It’s already happening with QF codes on 100+ US domestic routes operated by AA

I have done many flights without codeshares at the US international gateway transferring between international to domestic and vica versa. Operating flight numbers have tangible benefits that can't be replicated by codeshares.

 

[RichardMEL]

Of course, QF have probs with actual 787 shells to operate flights, plus they may have only requested the 2 units to France due to that or even projected demand.

 

[dajop]

Also FCO is a niche market. Not sure if it has year round demand. Telling that longer haul carriers seem to have smaller presence in the market than other major European ciites (and Milan), CX and TG don’t serve it, whilst SQ is only 4x weekly.

 

[wannabeinvestmentbanker]

Am I missing something? Why do they need to codeshare? This is QF which belongs to an actual alliance whereby they get reciprocal benefits and earning

 

[Per_Travels]

I think I made it quite clear in post #1 that ME airlines have a huge advantage in offering seamless one stop connections from Perth to the eastern USA. Why restate my point?

I think this argument falls over when you look at the actual schedules. I fly PER - US (usually IAH, sometimes LAX, JFK or ORD) probably 5-6 times per year. Usually I go across the pacific, occasionally via the Middle East (on QR). The flights to the US work really well, short connection in DOH, Q-suites to the US - probably one of my favorite flights to do. The problem is that on the way back you end up with ~9 hours sitting in DOH which blows away all of the advantage of a one stop connection in my mind. Hence I usually end up going with QF across the pacific and accept an extra connection on my journey

 

[RooFlyer]

I think this argument falls over when you look at the actual schedules. I fly PER - US (usually IAH, sometimes LAX, JFK or ORD) probably 5-6 times per year. Usually I go across the pacific, occasionally via the Middle East (on QR). The flights to the US work really well, short connection in DOH, Q-suites to the US - probably one of my favorite flights to do. The problem is that on the way back you end up with ~9 hours sitting in DOH which blows away all of the advantage of a one stop connection in my mind. Hence I usually end up going with QF across the pacific and accept an extra connection on my journey

That sounds the very sensible way to go. You simplify fly the Airlines and routes that work for you, not make yourself accept the bad service or bad scheduling just to always fly one particular airline.

 

[Quickstatus]

The problem is that on the way back you end up with ~9 hours sitting in DOH which blows away all of the advantage of a one stop connection in my mind

(I haven't checked in detail)
Could you please compare a 2 stop CX via HKG with a 2 stop via AU east coast?