Wine lovers musings, amusings and news

[Jczer000]

Interesting to also hear the critisism of lean, underripe, austere wines. The more common critisism I am used to is jammy, overextracted and alcoholic

 

[tielec]

Interesting to also hear the critisism of lean, underripe, austere wines. The more common critisism I am used to is jammy, overextracted and alcoholic

Perhaps this is a perspective unique to a man that tastes thousands of wines a year, from across the price spectrum; unable to hone in on the wines he knows he likes. We don't have such limitations.

In any case I agree with the thrust of the article, not unique to Australia mind you, see Luca Maroni when rating Italian wines for example (he seems to pull back in other regions though).

As always it's an easy problem to identify but hard to solve. Wine ratings are inextricably linked to wine sales; I have attended numerous tastings, some quite intimate, with a well known up and coming "critic" (sometimes claims not to be a critic). They have explicitly said to me that they see their job as selling wines, only paraphrased slightly. This is probably true of most critics, whether admitted or not; they need to make money somehow. Most of their financial models involve wineries/sellers paying to display scores on websites or promotional materials - why would you pay for a low review?

On top of that there's another perverse incentive to rate higher. When you rate wines highly, your ratings appear more often, thus building your public brand. When was the last time you saw a JO review at Langtons, versus the other critics? Obviously this leads to an eroision in trust, we are all familiar with Halliday's inflated scores, but what does that matter when wineries only submit their wines to you and your reviews are the only ones that appear without having to buy subscriptions to websites/books?

Those of us here that obsess overmuch about wine probably have a hierarchy of wine score validity, at the bottom is old mate bottleshop attendant, then your wine snob mate, then Halliday, then TWF, then HH, then JO, then Enthusiast, Spectator, Advocate and finishing with your own damn palate (which is faultless). YMMV on the position of these; the point is, I'm not sure it's a huge issue for the educated Aussie wine consumer, even less so for the casual consumer. Just makes us look a bit silly on the world stage. Might be a bigger issue when, reductio ad absurdum, every wine is either a 99 or a 100.

Probably telling everyone here how to suck eggs, but sometimes writing it out can help get your thoughts in order on a topic. Will help the next time I am two bottles deep and arguing about wine ratings with someone.

 

[boomy]

Interesting to also hear the critisism of lean, underripe, austere wines. The more common critisism I am used to is jammy, overextracted and alcoholic

Might have something to do with the latest fashion of minimal intervention winemaking which is highly acclaimed by some wine critics. JO seems to be more into traditional ‘old world’ style of winemaking and it’s often reflected in his scoring. I completely agree with him about the misuse of the 100 points scale scoring and even the 20 points scale some use. In my view it should be simplified to either 5 or 10 points score.

Regarding his PN scores, JO is far more exposed to European PN style so when he says most of the Aussie PN are not up to standard he may well be right but it doesn’t mean they are not good. In my view personal taste should have more value than expert scoring.

 

[georgehall]

My personal tastes are the complete opposite of JO, but I understand where he is coming from in so far as HIS scoring system.

He is scoring a wine against his benchmark wines, wines that are agreed among critics as the ''best in it's field' and demonstrate the variety in its best form. At best it's a view that is very much skewed towards the old world and doesn't allow for anything that is maybe challenging the ideas of traditional winemaking.

As far as being independent, he's up there as one of the shining lights, he has no affiliation to anyone so he tells it like he sees it. I just find his method of scoring wines as something I'm not really interested in.

 

[boomy]

My personal tastes are the complete opposite of JO, but I understand where he is coming from in so far as HIS scoring system.

He is scoring a wine against his benchmark wines, wines that are agreed among critics as the ''best in it's field' and demonstrate the variety in its best form. At best it's a view that is very much skewed towards the old world and doesn't allow for anything that is maybe challenging the ideas of traditional winemaking.

As far as being independent, he's up there as one of the shining lights, he has no affiliation to anyone so he tells it like he sees it. I just find his method of scoring wines as something I'm not really interested in.

The problem lies with the scoring system, it doesn’t differentiate between old and new world wines. Traditional French and new style Aussie PN can both score 99 points despite being completely different. To which benchmark should they be scored against? I don’t know.

Agree that JO is as independent and honest as they get.
I think the way he scores is better than most. It’s ridiculous that any score below 90 by other critics means almost undrinkable these days.

 

[afro]

Agree that JO is as independent and honest as they get.
I think the way he scores is better than most. It’s ridiculous that any score below 90 by other critics means almost undrinkable these days.

some Winemakers didn’t take this lightly because other critics score the same wine much higher, which leads to Ongoing problems, less wine will get reviewed by the lower score critics and more wine sents to higher score critics.
90 is not a bad score , I even drink wines that rated at 88 points, this high score marketing really kills the mood for winemakers and consumers.

 

[TheRealTMA]

not sure what you are referring to, is it in that article or just in general?
I thought he would of be in the same boat as James Halliday on screwcap.

I like his wines and buy them regularly but he uses corks of medium quality instead of screw caps. Not good for long term storage.

 

[afro]

I like his wines and buy them regularly but he uses corks of medium quality instead of screw caps. Not good for long term storage.

oh. My bad, I thought you were talking about Jeremy Oliver when you replied with my link with his article. I think josh cooper wines uses diam not cork,maybe some is under cork.
But I don’t prefer either. In the video JC did say why, it’s just his choice which he think it suits best with his style of wine.

 

[Buzzard]

We’ve lost an absolute pioneer of the wine world today, so sad for his young family. Taras made some incredible minimal intervention wines and mixed commercial success with still sticking to his roots. Very sad news.

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www.adelaidenow.com.au

Very sad indeed.

'Rockstar winemaker' Taras Ochota has died

The Ochota Barrels minimum-intervention winemaker sadly passed away on Monday 12 October prompting an outpouring of grief from the wine world. Chris Losh remembers the man he describes as a 'cool glass of calm'.

imbibe.com

 

[Jczer000]

.

'Rockstar winemaker' Taras Ochota has died

The Ochota Barrels minimum-intervention winemaker sadly passed away on Monday 12 October prompting an outpouring of grief from the wine world. Chris Losh remembers the man he describes as a 'cool glass of calm'.

imbibe.com

[/QUOTE]
A man with stories:

Taras Ochota - #001

Taras Ochota is a winemaker, punk rocker, surfer, restaurateur and all round good guy. His wines, Ochota Barrels are some of the most sought after in the country. Our intro music has been crafted by Andrew the sound guy who also runs Lost In A Forest. All good sound you hear is down to Andrew...

realwinepeople.com

 

[PLANT]

Hi all,

Is there an existing thread on Selling expensive bottles of wine? ie. How, where and when.... commissions.....

I would like to know the process if I am in the position to sell a "considered" expensive bottle of wine that I may own.

 

[boomy]

some Winemakers didn’t take this lightly because other critics score the same wine much higher, which leads to Ongoing problems, less wine will get reviewed by the lower score critics and more wine sents to higher score critics.
90 is not a bad score , I even drink wines that rated at 88 points, this high score marketing really kills the mood for winemakers and consumers.

I wonder who is to blame for trending inflated scoring in Australia, is it the older generation of critics such as JH and AC or the younger ones trying to shortcut their way to the top by making their scores more “attractive”?

That’s why I respect JO who is not afraid to score honestly, even if controversial at times. Can you imagine any of the young critics scoring By Farr flagship PN 85 points? They’ll be crucified! But JO doesn’t care, agree with him or not, he’s not taking part in a popularity contest.

 

[Alex Arch]

Personally, besides the few compromised reviews, I rate the Vivino system. If I find a wine on Vivino that is 4.0+ I'm guaranteed to enjoy it. Funny that if a reviewer gave the same wine an 80, and that's the only score I saw, I would avoid it. Perhaps I am part of the problem.

 

[afro]

I wonder who is to blame for trending inflated scoring in Australia, is it the older generation of critics such as JH and AC or the younger ones trying to shortcut their way to the top by making their scores more “attractive”?

That’s why I respect JO who is not afraid to score honestly, even if controversial at times. Can you imagine any of the young critics scoring By Farr flagship PN 85 points? They’ll be crucified! But JO doesn’t care, agree with him or not, he’s not taking part in a popularity contest.

this high score marketing trend , gold stickers and score tags that you don’t see in Aussie land are on the bottles trying to catch people’s attention in overseas retailers and supermarkets. the only good thing is most good stuff are still kept inland for locals at affordable prices. Thanks to the winemakers.

 

[qaz]

We’ve lost an absolute pioneer of the wine world today, so sad for his young family. Taras made some incredible minimal intervention wines and mixed commercial success with still sticking to his roots. Very sad news.

Vale Taras Ochota - Young Gun of Wine

On Tuesday October 13th, Taras Ochota (2013 Young Gun of Wine) parted with this world after a long illness, leaving behind Amber, his beloved partner in wine and life, and his adored children, Sage and Anouk.

younggunofwine.com

upon hearing the news, i was going to order the remaining stock of 2018 Fugazi from a website where i had previously bought a bottle, but after adding them into my cart, they then disappeared - i'm guessing that the owner just realised and remembered, deciding to now keep them for himself

Sort of a related article from himself

thanks - my memory could be mistaken, but i thought that JO originally scored Cullen Diana Madeline 2018 88/89pts on the weekend - it's now 90pts, which is still a far cry from TWF's 97pts

Yes but why does he keep using corks?

I like his wines and buy them regularly but he uses corks of medium quality instead of screw caps. Not good for long term storage.

Taras liked to keep things simple and natural?

oh. My bad, I thought you were talking about Jeremy Oliver when you replied with my link with his article. I think josh cooper wines uses diam not cork,maybe some is under cork.
But I don’t prefer either. In the video JC did say why, it’s just his choice which he think it suits best with his style of wine.

Josh only uses diam - Bindi have diam for reds, screwcap on whites - Michael said that he wants whites to stay fresh, reds to develop in bottle - Mac Forbes replaced ArdeaSeal with cork

Any Idea who the winemaker is he is referring to in the article? Mac Forbes possibly?

my guess is Bill Downie

Probably telling everyone here how to suck eggs, but sometimes writing it out can help get your thoughts in order on a topic.

yes, and reading tasting notes can help with understanding ratings

My personal tastes are the complete opposite of JO

hence it can be good to find a critic who seems aligned with oneself

The problem lies with the scoring system, it doesn’t differentiate between old and new world wines. Traditional French and new style Aussie PN can both score 99 points despite being completely different. To which benchmark should they be scored against? I don’t know.

a review should answer two questions, and so be accompanied by two scores:

• is it a good wine?
• is it a good example of the intended style?

for example, if a pinot noir tastes like Petrus rather than Ponsot, then it could score 100% for being a good wine, but 0% for being a bad example of a pinot noir

such a system is used by RateBeer

 

[afro]

thanks - my memory could be mistaken, but i thought that JO originally scored Cullen Diana Madeline 2018 88/89pts on the weekend - it's now 90pts, which is still a far cry from TWF's 97pts

he called what he saw even if it is a known brand so that’s a big plus , but the downside is he hardly revisit the same wine again.
I don’t really follow JO scores but did he rated other CM vintages around 90 as well?

Post automatically merged: Oct 15, 2020

Hi all,

Is there an existing thread on Selling expensive bottles of wine? ie. How, where and when.... commissions.....

I would like to know the process if I am in the position to sell a "considered" expensive bottle of wine that I may own.

not sure about existing threads ,Search for Langtons on google and go from there.

 

[qaz]

he called what he saw even if it is a known brand so that’s a big plus , but the downside is he hardly revisit the same wine again.
I don’t really follow JO scores but did he rated other CM vintages around 90 as well?

	JO	TWF
2018	90	97
2014	95	97
2013	90	96
2012	88	97
2011	92	92+/96+
2010	97	94+
2009	98	94+
2007	89	94/95+
2006	87	91
2005	97	95/95+
2004	97	93
2003	95	93
2002	90/95	88
2001	97	96
2000	97	93
1999	97	-
1998	96	-
1997	93	-
1996	95	90+

also for those who missed his 2016 Wine Annual, I've just uploaded it here

 

[qaz]

My Top 10 Australian Wine Brands Over The Last Ten Years

1) Penfolds Grange 2) Henschke Hill Of Grace 3) Bass Phillip Reserve Pinot Noir 4) Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay 5) Clarendon Hills A...

australianwinereviews.blogspot.com

 

[TheRealTMA]

Shocking! My favourite drop.

Italian Police Bust Counterfeit Wine Ring Producing ‘World’s Best Wine’

Italian authorities have broken up an organization that was selling fake bottles of wine passed off as the prized DOC Bolgheri Sassicaia, a wine that can be worth hundreds of euros a bottle.

www.forbes.com

 

[afro]

	JO	TWF
2018	90	97
2014	95	97
2013	90	96
2012	88	97
2011	92	92+/96+
2010	97	94+
2009	98	94+
2007	89	94/95+
2006	87	91
2005	97	95/95+
2004	97	93
2003	95	93
2002	90/95	88
2001	97	96
2000	97	93
1999	97	-
1998	96	-
1997	93	-
1996	95	90+

also for those who missed his 2016 Wine Annual, I've just uploaded it here

thats very low for 07,12,13 and 18, but he doesn’t have a problem scoring wendouree shiraz which is strange.