WSI for Western Sydney Airport

[Bundy Bear]

Great info, thanks. Is the incompatibility due to the fact that the Chatswood to Epping (at least) segment of the metro was originally built as a heavy train extension of the North Shore Line and the Metro had to be adapted to it for all of that line?

That would be a question for Sharath(Building Beautifully), that guy from youtube he could give you the ins & outs of why.

 

[dajop]

Transfers between the two airports will be pretty minimal.

Far better to use the rail line to minimise the journey time for the majority of people who will use the airport.

But of course, the airport will be used by people in SW Sydney too, and a rail line to connect them might also be helpful (as it would seem by the plans posted above). It's not quite as big as the west, it's not too far behind in population. Any transfer to SYD itself would just be a bi-product.

 

[ausfox]

It is not unusual to need to change trains to access an airport. Singapore is a great example.

 

[jpp42]

Great info, thanks. Is the incompatibility due to the fact that the Chatswood to Epping (at least) segment of the metro was originally built as a heavy train extension of the North Shore Line and the Metro had to be adapted to it for all of that line?

Yes, partially. The M1 metro line (not sure if they will use that designator, but let's suppose they do) used existing overhead wiring systems from Epping to Chatswood, and will do the same from Sydenham to Bankstown as well. As a result they use 1500 DC electrical supply, left over from Sydney Trains infrastructure and ultimately a legacy of the original 1920's electrification standards. The Airport Metro (M2?) will use 25kV AC, which is the modern standard for new systems. While it would be possible to design a rail car that could use both systems and switch between voltages, this adds weight, space, and cost and isn't normally done on metro systems.

The other issue is that because the M2 was designed as spur and eventually part of an orbital line, rather than a trunk line through the CBD, the platforms and trains are shorter. If the power issue were solved, while it might be possible to run a shorter train through Tallawong onto the M1 line into the City, this would strand capacity and possibly cause confusion with not all platform doors opening. The longer trains of the M1 can't run to the shorter platforms of the M2. This decision is all about reducing construction costs, primarily at the stations, and to better "right-size" the M2 for the expected lower demand. So this is why there will need to be a change at Tallawong, or at the other end Glenfield (or Bankstown).

 

[jpp42]

It is not unusual to need to change trains to access an airport. Singapore is a great example.

True, and that's often because the airport train line is built as an afterthought and not along a main rail line - SYD is a happy coincidence that they were able to divert an existing line, basically, in order to get direct service from the CBD. Many US airports (that have rail service) are served by spurs, often different technology than the primarily rail system (for example, EWR and JFK airports at New York City are close to, but not directly on, major rail lines, so have peoplemover type spurs). However, I feel like these examples reduce patronage quite a bit compared to what's possible when you have a one-seat ride to the CBD. Hong Kong's airport link is the best in this regard, and Tokyo Haneda's Keikyu line trains not far behind, and as a result these have significantly higher share of the ridership compared to Singapore Changi. At Singapore many people use taxis, due to the airport being on a spur (and the main line having many stops and slow average speed).

 

[Cynicor]

It probably also helps in SIN that taxis are trustworthy, plentiful and relatively cheap.

 

[RooFlyer]

That would be a question for Sharath(Building Beautifully), that guy from youtube he could give you the ins & outs of why.

Thanks. I haven't checked out that issue, yet, but an interesting site. Will explore it more.

 

[jrfsp]

Looks like Scomo is pushing for a cull of the curfew flights at SYD. Decision due end of Jan 24.

Unclear whether its just the freight flights or all flights during the curfew (11pm-6am)

Scott Morrison emerges to fight early morning Sydney Airport noise

Officials are considering cancelling special allowances for cargo operators to fly outside curfew after the ex-PM wrote to Labor demanding it be scrapped.

www.afr.com

 

[dajop]

At Singapore many people use taxis, due to the airport being on a spur (and the main line having many stops and slow average speed).

I think the problem isn't so much being a spur, nor the mainline having many stops, instead it is:
#1 getting to the station in the first place in the heat and humidity especially with luggage.
#2 Frequency... in Singapore we are spoilt, and a 12 min wait for a train at the changeover (which can happen at certain times of the day) feels like an eternity.
#3 Getting to T1 is a pain and T4 an even bigger pain.

 

[jpp42]

Looks like Scomo is pushing for a cull of the curfew flights at SYD. Decision due end of Jan 24.

Unclear whether its just the freight flights or all flights during the curfew (11pm-6am)

Scott Morrison emerges to fight early morning Sydney Airport noise

Officials are considering cancelling special allowances for cargo operators to fly outside curfew after the ex-PM wrote to Labor demanding it be scrapped.

www.afr.com

At risk of getting off topic here, passenger curfew landings are only allowed from 5am to 6am, right? And only if they can land from over the water, regardless of weather possibly favouring the other direction (this rule also applies to overnight cargo flights).

 

[jrfsp]

At risk of getting off topic here, passenger curfew landings are only allowed from 5am to 6am, right? And only if they can land from over the water, regardless of weather possibly favouring the other direction (this rule also applies to overnight cargo flights).

Thats correct for scheduled arrivals outside the regular curfew (shoulder movements)

Although dispensations for pax aircraft happen after 11pm too in the event of delays / weather so on

 

[Lynda2475]

Looks like Scomo is pushing for a cull of the curfew flights at SYD. Decision due end of Jan 24.

Great idea, curfew is silly, the airport has been there longer than anyone living under the flight path and planes. Being able to land 24*7 really helps when there are weather delays.

 

[dajop]

Great idea, curfew is silly, the airport has been there longer than anyone living under the flight path and planes. Being able to land 24*7 really helps when there are weather delays.

Umm, I don’t think the call was for culling the curfew, that’s a different issue, but instead culling the curfew flights - i.e. making a representation to discontinue the temporary permissions granted during covid for certain flights to operate outside the curfew.

 

[jpp42]

Umm, I don’t think the call was for culling the curfew, that’s a different issue, but instead culling the curfew flights - i.e. making a representation to discontinue the temporary permissions granted during covid for certain flights to operate outside the curfew.

Exactly - I can't read the AFR article but I can see from the summary: "Officials are considering cancelling special allowances for cargo operators to fly outside curfew after the ex-PM wrote to Labor demanding it be scrapped."

I believe this refers to short-haul domestic or Trans-Tasman cargo, formerly operated by BAE 146 aircraft (which had a legislated exemption in the original 1995 curfew law), which during Covid was extended to narrowbody freight (A320/B737 or similar), to account for increased freight demand during Covid. Article here.
It says this is meant to expire in mid-2024, so I suppose Scomo is trying to make sure this will happen as scheduled.

This probably deserves a new thread if the moderators could oblige?
Although to make it on topic, I will note: "The Sydney Airport Curfew Act 1995 provides that once Western Sydney Airport is able to be used for night aircraft movements, the exceptions relating to freight, propeller and small jet aircraft will cease to apply at Sydney Airport." Reference.

 

[RooFlyer]

Umm, I don’t think the call was for culling the curfew, that’s a different issue, but instead culling the curfew flights - i.e. making a representation to discontinue the temporary permissions granted during covid for certain flights to operate outside the curfew.

The federal electorate of Grayndler is held by a certain Mr A. Albanese and lies right under the main NS runway flight path. This request might get some traction.

 

[dajop]

The federal electorate of Grayndler is held by a certain Mr A. Albanese and lies right under the main NS runway flight path. This request might get some traction.

Isn't it a pre-requisite to become PM now, to have an electorate under a SYD flight path?

 

[elanshin]

Back to originally discussing WSI's rail link, the current plan is ok, but does take a couple of transfers. WSI > St Mary's > Central > Airport Line.

I suspect a bus / shuttle company will step in and provide an airport to airport shuttle via M5.

Long term, I wonder if they'll connect WSI station to SW Sydney given the growth in that area. It would also serve as a great radial route for those trying to go from the SW to the Blacktown area.

We could alsk see the Sydney West Metro extended either to St Mary or straight into aerotropolis in the longer term future as an extension.

Overall, this line looks to be serving quite a useful function with reasonable expansion options.

 

[Rich]

It's interesting that the map on the Sydney Metro web site includes the gray segments ('business case promised')

They do business cases for rail infrastructure in NSW? How novel.

 

[Himeno]

At risk of getting off topic here, passenger curfew landings are only allowed from 5am to 6am, right? And only if they can land from over the water, regardless of weather possibly favouring the other direction (this rule also applies to overnight cargo flights).

If HND can operate 24 hours with overnight flights landing/departing over the bay, I don't see why SYD can't.

 

[justinbrett]

Looks like the ICAO code will be YSWS according to this Airservices doc:

https://www.avsef.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-12/documents/airservices_wsia_ga_industry_briefing_paper_dec_23.pdf