Yet another Qantas DISASTER!!

[GDale]

I am coming to this thread late (due to the update/bump last night), but I believe the OP has stated that the SIN lounge incident was in 2016, not 2017. The linked article above would support that theory.

So sounds like there may have been another incident in 2017 (and perhaps more based on apparent tendencies)?

Yes this thread has been fascinating! I agree, there's something not quite right with the timeline it seems. If the person referred to in that article is indeed the OP, then a rough chronology seems to be:

• 2002: OP joins QFF
• ~2003-2012: OP holds SG
• 2012-2018: OP holds WP and achieves LTG
• May 2016: HKG-SYD flight with broken IFE prompting claim in December 2016 (Claim 1)
• Some other time in 2016: SIN-MEL flight with an unknown issue causing police attendance and no fly ban to be issued by QF, prompting another claim in December 2016 (Claim 2)
• December 2016: VCAT determines lack of jurisdiction for claim 1, dismisses claim 2. Dismissal of claim 2 meant the no fly ban imposed by QF was upheld
• (pure guess) 2017: perhaps there was some sort of mediation between OP and QF, leading to ban being lifted? Hence why a new ban was triggered in 2018?
• Presumably some time in late 2017: another incident on SIN-MEL flight over seat allocation, causing police attendance and another ban to be issued
• early 2018: OP sues for flight not taken (due to being kicked off) in VCAT (Claim 3), VCAT claims no jurisdiction, OP pursues in Magistrates Court and wins the refund. Point about being banned by QF doesn't appear to have been raised in court.
• June 2018: OP starts post here about being banned for a few months - presumably not about the incident in 2016, given the timing.
• ~2019-2021: OP continues to fly QF on and off, mainly for domestic and short haul international trips, without incident
• Jan 2022: OP buys QF issued ticket with QF and EK coded flights
• May 2022: OP links his ticket (OTA issued) with his partner's ticket (QF direct issued), requests a flight change which QF stuffs up
• July 2022: QF somehow picks up the fact that OP is on its no fly list and issues a stern letter. OTA doesn't cancel ticket per QF's instructions and OP completes flights, with QFF number attached to the flights
• July/August 2022: OP identifies points not credited for one or more of the flights, claims retro credit for them. This triggered a manual review from QFF, in turn causing all points earned since 2017 to be clawed back

OP, is this right? If so, as others have called out, when was your ban actually lifted in all of this and what did it say? What were the conditions associated with the ban and downgrade in 2016/2017 and was that ban revived by any chance due to events in 2018?

QF has plenty of issues but your circumstances seem to be very very unique. If there's indeed been a lot of bad blood in the past, but you were back on even terms with QF until the recent events, I think it wouldn't hurt to document the history clearly and objectively in an email to Stephanie Tully, supply evidence that the ban had already been lifted, ask to be treated in the same way as any other normal customer going forward, and request reinstatement of the points due to the misunderstanding. You can go straight for the sledgehammer but given the messy history, a win is not necessarily a certainty I think, and a far more stressful path to pursue regardless.

In expressing yourself to QF (especially for escalations), also keep in mind that whilst Qantas may not have a soul, the correspondence is still handled by humans who will have far more sympathy for someone who comes across as respectful than someone ready and willing to throw the book at them. You may feel very aggrieved but try to be the bigger man!

 

[samh004]

This thread outlines the incident.

Thanks for pointing that out, and @GDale excellent overview above.

I note in the previous thread I made a comment along the lines of don't let me lose perspective in post #11. Good refresher for me now I'm LTG.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Open question: is Qantas allowed to ban anyone from their flights, particularly if they are Australian? Doing so would be the equivalent of banning someone from movement especially if they are based in rural Australia where QF may very well be the only airline offering service. At a minimum, if I were to find out that I was put on such a list, I'd take the airline to court and seek damages, an apology and a reversal.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Princess Fiona]

Open question: is Qantas allowed to ban anyone from their flights, particularly if they are Australian? Doing so would be the equivalent of banning someone from movement especially if they are based in rural Australia where QF may very well be the only airline offering service. At a minimum, if I were to find out that I was put on such a list, I'd take the airline to court and seek damages, an apology and a reversal.

-RooFlyer88

Yes they absolutely are.
As is any other carrier.
If you did something that caused the airline to ban you it might be difficult to get any of the things that you seek…..

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Open question: is Qantas allowed to ban anyone from their flights, particularly if they are Australian? Doing so would be the equivalent of banning someone from movement especially if they are based in rural Australia where QF may very well be the only airline offering service. At a minimum, if I were to find out that I was put on such a list, I'd take the airline to court and seek damages, an apology and a reversal.

-RooFlyer88

Yes, of course they can ban people from their flights… provided they have lawful reason to do so. If you threaten staff, or are a danger to staff or passengers, or commit fraud, why would a ban be overturned?

A case was upheld recently where someone was banned from going to centrelink offices. This was their only means of contacting centrelink. The judge considered the ban reasonable.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Yes they absolutely are.
As is any other carrier.

Hmm... the laws seem to be a bit different here than other jurisdictions where one must go to trial before the airline can officially give ya the boot!

If you did something that caused the airline to ban you it might be difficult to get any of the things that you seek…..

A lot of it comes down to context. Having police escort you off a plane does not necessarily mean you did anything wrong. For instance, Air Canada had police board a plane bound for London and escort 25 passengers off the plane as a polite way of doing involuntary denied boarding when they realized they messed up. That being said, if police showing up on your flight is a regular occurrence, then yeah there may be some issues.

-RooFlyer88

 

[MrJetset]

Open question: is Qantas allowed to ban anyone from their flights, particularly if they are Australian? Doing so would be the equivalent of banning someone from movement especially if they are based in rural Australia where QF may very well be the only airline offering service. At a minimum, if I were to find out that I was put on such a list, I'd take the airline to court and seek damages, an apology and a reversal.

-RooFlyer88

This isn’t a human rights violation.

QF isn’t the government.

There seems to be a lot of bush lawyering in this and the NCAT thread.

Several police had to attend to protect QF staff from the OP. My sympathy ends there. No staff in their role should have to deal with abusive or aggressive pax.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

This isn’t a human rights violation.

QF isn’t the government.

You are right that Qantas is a public company. On the other hand, they are the Australian flag carrier and I was thinking that maybe the privatization act may have placed more constraints on Qantas than say an ordinary airline like Virgin Australia or Rex, for instance.

There seems to be a lot of bush lawyering in this and the NCAT thread.

I should probably point out I'm not a lawyer so all of this is speculation on my end, more to provoke discussion if anything.

Several police have had to attend to protect QF staff from the OP. My sympathy ends there. No staff in their role should have to deal with abusive or aggressive pax.

Completely agree with you here! In all my travels thus far, I have not argued with ground staff, crew or anyone else. That type of behaviour is unacceptable, especially the gate agents who arguably have the most stressful job of anyone ensuring that planes get boarded in a timely manner. My motto is I don't have to be right/win in this instance if I eventually can get what I want. I can't tell you the times where an agent has given me an unacceptable answer and instead of fighting I just hung up or went to another agent elsewhere. No point arguing in front of a judge when they already decided your case!

-RooFlyer88

 

[hmmm]

This isn’t a human rights violation.

QF isn’t the government.

There seems to be a lot of bush lawyering in this and the NCAT thread.

Several police have had to attend to protect QF staff from the OP. My sympathy ends there. No staff in their role should have to deal with abusive or aggressive pax.

SEVERAL police attended, because the airline fabricated the severity of the issue to them. They were called, not because staff needed protection, but because I refused to leave the lounge until they honoured their obligations of providing me onward travel and/or accomodation due to their baseless decision to deny me travel on my paid reservation. The police were polite and understanding and simply put it to me that I was now ‘officially’ being asked to leave and that if I didn’t, it would be considered trespass and with that, I left voluntarily with no action from them whatsoever. If that sounds abusive or aggressive to you, then you have a few screws loose. Also be mindful that this occurred in Singapore, a country known for civil obedience so any ‘disobedience’ is taken far more seriously than in other western countries.

As for the staff…. They are there to serve customers. But many of them treat customers with disdain and contempt and treat a flight like it’s their personal fiefdom or that you swore at their mother. There was no reason for my preallocated seat to have been cancelled and given to someone else, all the while they claimed and promoted Platinum members as being their most important customers. It’s that false representation that induces customers to book with them, based on the benefits they will get, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath them, is the basis for my attitude toward Qantas. And that contempt remains, for all the customers with missing, delayed or destroyed luggage, all the customers with cancelled flights, all the customers with delayed refunds and all the customers that continue to be treated like trash by the ‘national carrier’. If you like them and the service they provide, knock yourself out. I don’t. And fortunately for me, there are plenty of other airlines that provide a more appropriate and acceptable service than this second rate airline.

Ps: do you work for Qantas? Because you seem unusually invested in this issue.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

SEVERAL police attended, because the airline fabricated the severity of the issue to them. They were called, not because staff needed protection, but because I refused to leave the lounge until they honoured their obligations of providing me onward travel and/or accomodation due to their baseless decision to deny me travel on my paid reservation. The police were polite and understanding and simply put it to me that I was now ‘officially’ being asked to leave and that if I didn’t, it would be considered trespass and with that, I left voluntarily with no action from them whatsoever. If that sounds abusive or aggressive to you, then you have a few screws loose.

But did you get what you wanted out of that encounter? Based on your account, the answer is no! Look, all I'm saying is it's pointless to fight with someone who's gonna keep telling you no. You can throw a tantrum but that won't frankly solve the problem. This is where using other avenues such as going to the Qantas customer service or ticketing desk may help, calling Qantas, or something else. From my experience dealing with Air Canada, Lufthansa, United and yes even Qantas, sometimes it's better to keep hunting then to set your sights on the dead horse!

As an aside, and something I would strongly encourage you to look at is getting a high quality credit card that has travel insurance built in. In that case you wouldn't have to argue with a soul, book all the emergency travel stuff to your card then claim it on the card's insurance. I think you should also change your tune when it comes to cancellations. You should welcome them. They provide us travellers with an opportunity to choose the flights we want had money not been an option. I can't tell you the number of times a QF or JQ cancellation has resulted in me rebooking an indirect routing to earn extra SCs. I've also had QF cancel a flight I didn't want to take (i.e. the early morning LDH > SYD flight) and rebook me on a flight I wanted to take (the afternoon LDH > SYD flight)

As for the staff…. They are there to serve customers. But many of them treat customers with disdain and contempt and treat a flight like it’s their personal fiefdom or that you swore at their mother.

Contrary to popular opinion, customer service actually serves several stakeholders including the customer. I agree that some staff have a chip on their shoulder, and I just ignore them either by HUCA or just not engaging with them.

There was no reason for my preallocated seat to have been cancelled and given to someone else, all the while they claimed and promoted Platinum members as being their most important customers. It’s that false representation that induces customers to book with them, based on the benefits they will get, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath them, is the basis for my attitude toward Qantas.

There are plenty of reasons why I preallocated seat could disappear. Aircraft swaps, inoperable seats, chairman's club members bumping off us plebs and of course IT issues. Is getting bumped from your preallocated seat annoying? Yes. But again I think the context there is important. If it's a couple of hours in length then no harm, no foul. If it's a long haul domestic like SYD to LAX then yeah I could certainly be a bit upset. Then again, if you were bumped into an acceptable seat, then maybe not so bad.

As an aside, Platinums and Platinum Ones aren't the most important customers. Indeed there are travellers with simply Silver or Gold status that are WAY more valuable than the dime a dozen Platinum/Platinum One customers such as those who travel a regularly on QF domestically in full-fare Y.

And that contempt remains, for all the customers with missing, delayed or destroyed luggage, all the customers with cancelled flights, all the customers with delayed refunds and all the customers that continue to be treated like trash by the ‘national carrier’. If you like them and the service they provide, knock yourself out. I don’t. And fortunately for me, there are plenty of other airlines that provide a more appropriate and acceptable service than this second rate airline.

In terms of QF staff treating travellers poorly, I would sincerely encourage you to travel with other airlines and tell me how you are treated. My parents flying business class on Air Canada were told to bugger off by the check-in desk when Air Canada cancelled their flights last minute. They weren't booked on another flight and were offered zero assistance. It wasn't until I met them at the airport and escorted them to the hidden check-in desks that everything was reasonably sorted. Then my father arrives at his destination and AC lost his bag. Again, instead of fuming I told him to go on a shopping spree, and submit the receipts to AC for compensation since they are obligated under the Montreal convention to provide compensation for sundry items. I've had Lufthansa agents tell me I can't check in for my flight to the US because I don't have an ESTA (despite the fact that I don't qualify for ESTA as a Canadian). All it took was a polite request to get a station manager and that was sorted. I've had a United Club agent deny both of my parents entry into the Heathrow lounge despite me travelling in Polaris J and being a Gold member. Instead of arguing with them, I let my Dad into the lounge, then afterwards guested my mom into the Air Canada lounge. I could've argued and made a scene but what would I have gained from all of that?

-RooFlyer88

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Hmm... the laws seem to be a bit different here than other jurisdictions where one must go to trial before the airline can officially give ya the boot!

A lot of it comes down to context. Having police escort you off a plane does not necessarily mean you did anything wrong. For instance, Air Canada had police board a plane bound for London and escort 25 passengers off the plane as a polite way of doing involuntary denied boarding when they realized they messed up. That being said, if police showing up on your flight is a regular occurrence, then yeah there may be some issues.

-RooFlyer88

Of course context is important. The airline must have a valid reason, and can’t be discriminatory. The former is dictated by their commercial interests anyway… they’re not going to ban passengers and lose revenue for no reason.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There are plenty of reasons why I preallocated seat could disappear. Aircraft swaps, inoperable seats, chairman's club members bumping off us plebs and of course IT issues. Is getting bumped from your preallocated seat annoying? Yes. But again I think the context there is important. If it's a couple of hours in length then no harm, no foul. If it's a long haul domestic like SYD to LAX then yeah I could certainly be a bit upset. Then again, if you were bumped into an acceptable seat, then maybe not so bad.

-RooFlyer88

There are plenty of reasons… but not a lot of them should be the concern of the passenger… aircraft swaps are at the control of the airline, as are inoperable seats. I don’t believe a change of seat to accommodate a platinum of CL is a valid reason… qantas states in their terms and conditions that seats aren’t guaranteed and can be changed due to operational reasons. ‘operational’ must be taken to mean ‘safety and security’. If qantas had meant to include ‘commercial’ reasons they could have stated that.

Although much of that is irrelevant as there’s nothing a passenger can do about it.

 

[MrJetset]

SEVERAL police attended, because the airline fabricated the severity of the issue to them. They were called, not because staff needed protection, but because I refused to leave the lounge until they honoured their obligations of providing me onward travel and/or accomodation due to their baseless decision to deny me travel on my paid reservation. The police were polite and understanding and simply put it to me that I was now ‘officially’ being asked to leave and that if I didn’t, it would be considered trespass and with that, I left voluntarily with no action from them whatsoever. If that sounds abusive or aggressive to you, then you have a few screws loose. Also be mindful that this occurred in Singapore, a country known for civil obedience so any ‘disobedience’ is taken far more seriously than in other western countries.

As for the staff…. They are there to serve customers. But many of them treat customers with disdain and contempt and treat a flight like it’s their personal fiefdom or that you swore at their mother. There was no reason for my preallocated seat to have been cancelled and given to someone else, all the while they claimed and promoted Platinum members as being their most important customers. It’s that false representation that induces customers to book with them, based on the benefits they will get, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath them, is the basis for my attitude toward Qantas. And that contempt remains, for all the customers with missing, delayed or destroyed luggage, all the customers with cancelled flights, all the customers with delayed refunds and all the customers that continue to be treated like trash by the ‘national carrier’. If you like them and the service they provide, knock yourself out. I don’t. And fortunately for me, there are plenty of other airlines that provide a more appropriate and acceptable service than this second rate airline.

Ps: do you work for Qantas? Because you seem unusually invested in this issue.

No I don’t work for QF.

I don’t believe anyone else on this forum has any experience of police being called by any airline. It’s not normal behaviour. Nor has anyone been banned by an airline.

By your own admission you refused to leave the lounge. Others can conclude what kind of state you must have been in to act in such a defiant manner for the police to instruct you to move on.

Despite this, you think I have some screws loose? I certainly haven’t attempted to sue Gucci over a man bag, either…

I also find it incredible the amount of damage you’re causing to yourself by writing in this thread. Any decent lawyer would have advised you from putting anything in writing but you continue to do so knowing QF read AFF.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I also find it incredible the amount of damage you’re causing to yourself by writing in this thread. Any decent lawyer would have advised you from putting anything in writing but you continue to do so knowing QF read AFF.

I am not a lawyer, but would suspect that anything you put in writing could potentially be used against you, regardless of who you intended it for and how you intended it to be interpreted.

That being said, I sincerely hope the OP learns from these experiences. As they have claimed they have flown many many times with QF (given the 14,000 SC requirement for LTG), these incidents aren't sustainable in the longterm. They should use this thread as an opportunity to learn how they can be less inconvenienced when things go sideways be it from an airline, a hotel or some other business. As my Air Canada frequent flyers would tell me Attitude means way more than Altitude (AC's frequent flyer status)! I've seen FoSTGs being treated better than EXP on AA simply because the former didn't overheat and boil over.

-RooFlyer88

 

[dylarr]

Open question: is Qantas allowed to ban anyone from their flights, particularly if they are Australian? Doing so would be the equivalent of banning someone from movement especially if they are based in rural Australia where QF may very well be the only airline offering service. At a minimum, if I were to find out that I was put on such a list, I'd take the airline to court and seek damages, an apology and a reversal.

Yep they can. Using an airline isn't a right and being banned by one isn't limiting your movement. If you abuse airline staff and the airline places you on its no fly list because they deem you to be a security threat you can still fly with a different airline or use a different means of travel.

There are a few notable bans that gained media attention in recent years. The man who smashed a pie into Alan Joyce's face at an event in Perth copped a lifetime ban from the QF group. Senator Jacqui Lambie copped a 6-month ban for abusing staff at the Chairman's Lounge in Melbourne.

 

[hmmm]

No I don’t work for QF.

I don’t believe anyone else on this forum has any experience of police being called by any airline. It’s not normal behaviour. Nor has anyone been banned by an airline.

By your own admission you refused to leave the lounge. Others can conclude what kind of state you must have been in to act in such a defiant manner for the police to instruct you to move on.

Despite this, you think I have some screws loose? I certainly haven’t attempted to sue Gucci over a man bag, either…

I also find it incredible the amount of damage you’re causing to yourself by writing in this thread. Any decent lawyer would have advised you from putting anything in writing but you continue to do so knowing QF read AFF.

According your logic, I guess Dr Dao who was violently dragged off a United flight was also engaging in "not normal behaviour". I guess the rumoured $140 million settlement he received was because again... he engaged in not normal behaviour.

FYI, police get called for LOTS of reasons and not all of them are illegal or bad or imply guilt. I was not aware the police had been called, until they showed up, so clearly I wasn't privy to their conversation with they duty/lounge manager, but once they assessed the situation, not all of them remained and the discussion with them was very civil. Its clear you have already decided what kind of "state" I was in to act in such a "defiant" manner. I guess Dr Dao was also in a "state" due to his "defiant" behaviour also.

And why shouldn't I sue Gucci over a man bag? if its not of merchantable quality and they refuse to do anything about it, why is it even relevant that I made use of consumer protection laws that were put in place for this very reason? you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel with this one.

And please.....enlighten me. What damage am I doing to myself by writing in this thread? im merely stating the truth. Not as I "see" it, but as it actually occurred. Qantas can read this all they like. They are already aware, or at the very least, should be aware of everything anyway so whatever gets mentioned here or in court or a tribunal will not come as a shock or surprise to them. I have absolutely NOTHING to hide.

You can judge me. You can think whatever you want about me. The thing im confused about, is why on earth you think I care?

 

[hmmm]

I am not a lawyer, but would suspect that anything you put in writing could potentially be used against you, regardless of who you intended it for and how you intended it to be interpreted.

That being said, I sincerely hope the OP learns from these experiences. As they have claimed they have flown many many times with QF (given the 14,000 SC requirement for LTG), these incidents aren't sustainable in the longterm. They should use this thread as an opportunity to learn how they can be less inconvenienced when things go sideways be it from an airline, a hotel or some other business. As my Air Canada frequent flyers would tell me Attitude means way more than Altitude (AC's frequent flyer status)! I've seen FoSTGs being treated better than EXP on AA simply because the former didn't overheat and boil over.

-RooFlyer88

The thing is, im quite happy for anything I've written to be "used against me". I've explained exactly what happened and how it happened. I have clearly identified when I have made an assumption and I haven't stating anything as fact, when im not certain it is fact.

The facts are however, Qantas claims to have banned me and tried to impose conditions it seemingly doesn't have the authority to do. I say seemingly, because it clearly tried to enforce certain things, that it clearly didn't or couldn't. Namely, canceling an agency booking and denying me travel on a codeshare flight operated by Emirates.This is not merely my opinion... this is fact, and is evidenced by the fact that the ticket was NOT cancelled and I was allowed to travel on it. Despite some other morons assertions to the contrary, Im not here to cause myself of them any hassle or drama. neither am I bothered or concerned about why I was/am banned or the reasons for it. This is not due to arrogance, but rather the fact that I made the choice to no longer fly with them, as, in my previous experiences, they simply do not offer a service or product that they advertise and promote and that I have been misled/deceived into expecting.

Now.... if they contacted me a week or two or four after the ticket was booked and said "look.... we have banned you, please cancel your reservation with us via your OTA. We will waive any fees and please be reminded that you are unable to book/travel on QF/JQ flights until "X"" I'd have been totally fine with it. BUT.... to have known that a ticket was booked, as evidenced by my frequent flyer number being added to the booking at the time of booking, and to sit and wait almost 5 whole months before deciding ONE DAY BEFORE PEAK SUMMER TRAVEL to email me and expect me to do anything about it is simply outrageous. even IF I was booked on one of their flights, which they had and are entitled to ban me from, it would still be egregious to wait 5 months before taking action when they should have acted sooner.

Now they are trying to claim that my frequent flyer account was also "suspended" 5 years ago and that I was not allowed to earn or redeem points or have any activity on my account. Yet for the last 5 years, my account clearly remained open and active and accumulated over 1 million points in that time. And only now have they decided to go back and enforce a ban they allegedly implemented 5 years ago? It just beggars belief how inept and derelict you need to be to not enforce your own ban for 5 years and then decide you want to do so. And you're all confused about "how I didn't know" or "why I didn't know" but barely one of you is asking "how in the actual F did Qantas not know about their own ban and why didn't they enforce it"?

In any case, im done.

I will take whatever steps I feel necessary to enforce my rights in this and any other matter as I see fit. But I certainly won't be hanging around to be chastised by some moron (not you btw) for seeking to enforce my contractual rights.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes, I have some sympathy regarding the potential circumstances in which police are called. It used to be pretty bad in the USA: we had an agent call the police on the whole gate because someone approached her to ask when our delayed flight might be leaving. We’d been waiting for nearly six hours. She apparently felt ‘uncomfortable’.

It seems to have calmed down in the US, or at least it’s not being reported as much.

 

[Rugby]

There’s a lot to unpack here, not the least of which is that people buy Gucci man bags…

 

[RooFlyer]

Pssst @kangarooflyer88 . Qantas is not the national flag carrier. Advertising puff does not make it so.