FWA pursuing JQ for unpaid wages for foreign crew

[markis10]

Anyone who has flown JQ35 would know there is no "ällegedly" here, they have been on all my JQ35 trips:

The Fair Work Ombudsman wants Valuair and Tour East to reimburse the eight cabin crew more than $7500 it alleges they are owed in back-pay. It also wants the Federal Court to fine Jetstar.

It says the cabin crew employees are entitled to be paid under the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award 2010, and not the wage they would be entitled to in Asia.

Both firms are part-owned by Qantas.

​

Airline cabin crew recruited in Thailand have allegedly been staffing domestic routes in Australia for Jetstar — for half the cost of the budget airline's local staff.

The Gillard government's workplace ombudsman has today taken the airline to the Federal Court, saying the pay rate offered to the eight workers involved is not good enough.
The Federal Court action may ultimately involve 300 international cabin crew rostered across Jetstar's domestic routes.

Read more: Jetstar alleged to have used budget crew
​

 

[oz_mark]

Anyone who has flown JQ35 would know there is no "ällegedly" here, they have been on all my JQ35 trips:

I think some of the problem is the way JQ operate some of the tag domestic sectors. JQ35 is clearly an international flight and uses the international terminals. I suspect the bigger issue is what goes on through Darwin, as these end up operating through domestic terminals, so part of the flight really is purely domestic.

 

[samh004]

Interesting. If these are the crew on the international flights only, does that mean other airlines who fly on, such as Cathay Pacific HKG/CNS/BNE are entitled to Australian pay too? Does it have broader implications than just Jetstar, or is it just because the Jetstar flights are part of the Australian ops not the overseas ops, so that’s the reason?

 

[aoz48x]

Jetstar is selling itself as an Australian based airline. Not Jetstar Asia, not Jetstar Hong Kong but Jetstar the original Australian based carrier. So when booking the JQ brand you are expecting Australian based employees. However 9 out of the 10 cabin crew are foreign based crew being bad well below half what local employees would be paid. No wonder JQ are making some exceptional profits when you are paying well below standard price for wages.

 

[oz_mark]

It is not something unique to jestar. Even qantas operate with foreign crew. However, if you have flights operating between domestic terminals, then I would expect crews to be paid accordingly.

Sent from my HTC Legend using AustFreqFly

 

[whatmeworry]

I think Jetstar is in trouble, because it is an Australia company and has landing rights as an Australian company.

In Melbourne, a Chinese restaurant brought in a cook from China on a sponsored work visa and underpaid him for 5 years. Whilst in that time, the guy gained his Australian residency and then made a claim to the Fair Work Ombudsman that his was underpaid and the restaurant was ordered to repay him $200K!

So if we use that case as a precedence, Jetstar might be looking at repaying some money!

 

[amaroo]

Great, another example of Australian businesses being saddled with Government red tape & uncompetitive practices that only apply to Australian companies!

If you are going to handicap your home grown companies why not do it to all the other airlines flying into this country? Fair enough to have people paid a decent salary but don't do in a way that handicaps one business from competing with the others.

Can we fast forward to that wonderful day that awaits us in 2013, very fast please!

 

[harvyk]

Great, another example of Australian businesses being saddled with Government red tape & uncompetitive practices that only apply to Australian companies!

If you are going to handicap your home grown companies why not do it to all the other airlines flying into this country? Fair enough to have people paid a decent salary but don't do in a way that handicaps one business from competing with the others.

Can we fast forward to that wonderful day that awaits us in 2013, very fast please!

Please explain how enforcing a company to pay a minimum wage for a fair days work is adding red tape and handicapping the business?

An airline flying Australian domestic routes, of which the average Joe can book without travelling OS is underpaying staff compared to what it would cost them had they hired locals to do the job. Had the Australian domestic sectors been part of an international flight where by there was no option to take just the domestic leg without also flying international, that's a different story (eg like QF107 \ 108 LAX - JFK - LAX, you need to also fly an international sector to be able to book on that flight)

One of the things I am thankful for in this country is we do have minimum wages and a minimum standard of living. It means that whilst we are not as competitive on the international scale, we also don't have the shanty towns which exist in other places where there in no minimum wage.

 

[amaroo]

Please explain how enforcing a company to pay a minimum wage for a fair days work is adding red tape and handicapping the business?

Like I said - Fair enough to have people paid a decent salary but don't do in a way that handicaps one business from competing with others.

An airline flying Australian domestic routes, of which the average Joe can book without travelling OS is underpaying staff compared to what it would cost them had they hired locals to do the job. Had the Australian domestic sectors been part of an international flight where by there was no option to take just the domestic leg without also flying international, that's a different story (eg like QF107 \ 108 LAX - JFK - LAX, you need to also fly an international sector to be able to book on that flight)

I've flown on two airlines (I'm sure there are more) that fly between DOM ports in OZ - CX CNS-BNE & MU MEL-SYD......sure, they don't carry passengers between ports only however, they drop people off & pick people up at each port. Therefore, someone can jump on CX in Cairns (at a discount/some times free to local options) hitch & ride down to BNE before catching the plane to HGK. Same thing happens with MU between MEL-SYD on the flight I took many people left the plane at MEL & many new passengers hopped on to enjoy a discount/free leg to SYD, before catching the plane to PVG.

If we are worried about minimum wages, conditions & equal pay for equal work why not slug CX & MU with the same constraints? It's not like passengers don't have a plethora of local options between these ports!

One of the things I am thankful for in this country is we do have minimum wages and a minimum standard of living. It means that whilst we are not as competitive on the international scale, we also don't have the shanty towns which exist in other places where there in no minimum wage.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of these types of communities all over Australia. Granted, not that many in Canberra.

Sadly, the magic wand of minimum wage has not been the panacea to eradicate this curse from our shores!

 

[samh004]

I think Jetstar is in trouble, because it is an Australia company and has landing rights as an Australian company.

In Melbourne, a Chinese restaurant brought in a cook from China on a sponsored work visa and underpaid him for 5 years. Whilst in that time, the guy gained his Australian residency and then made a claim to the Fair Work Ombudsman that his was underpaid and the restaurant was ordered to repay him $200K!

So if we use that case as a precedence, Jetstar might be looking at repaying some money!

Easy for the Chinese chef to get residency because he lives in Australia… but considering the amount of time the cabin crew spends here, it would take significantly longer.

Great, another example of Australian businesses being saddled with Government red tape & uncompetitive practices that only apply to Australian companies!

If you are going to handicap your home grown companies why not do it to all the other airlines flying into this country? Fair enough to have people paid a decent salary but don't do in a way that handicaps one business from competing with the others.

Can we fast forward to that wonderful day that awaits us in 2013, very fast please!

The way I see it is it’s the Australian arm of Jetstar so they should have an Australia crew. I could see them opening a Thai arm for Thai flights that connected between Australian cities and thus get away with it, same as for another other foreign airline that’s not 'based' in Australia, but they’d then need an American base for HNL and an Indonesian base for Bali flights.

If you’re flying on the Australian arm of Jetstar then you’d expect the staff to be paid per Australian rules. If on the other hand it was the Singaporean arm (is that 3K?) then I’d understand the staff being on those rules, however, the Bali flights don’t connect to Singapore…

So I can see plain as day where they’re running afoul. It would be entirely different if all the flights in question were based out of the foreign countries and not Australia, but they’re not.

 

[whatmeworry]

Easy for the Chinese chef to get residency because he lives in Australia… but considering the amount of time the cabin crew spends here, it would take significantly longer.


If you’re flying on the Australian arm of Jetstar then you’d expect the staff to be paid per Australian rules. If on the other hand it was the Singaporean arm (is that 3K?) then I’d understand the staff being on those rules, however, the Bali flights don’t connect to Singapore…

So I can see plain as day where they’re running afoul. It would be entirely different if all the flights in question were based out of the foreign countries and not Australia, but they’re not.

With the Chinese guy I was more linking him being underpaid rather then a residency claim, as the Chinese guy only made a claim for back pay once he was sure he could without fear of being deported before make a claim.

With the foreign airlines operating dom sectors as part of a International flight, it's different because you can't separately book those sectors with CX or MU whereas with Jetstar you can and that is why this is unfair and unAustralian.

 

[markis10]

It's makes a lot of sense why JQ have so many domestic legs of international flights now, and why QF scaled back theirs or gave it to JQ ie CNS- DRW.

 

[Mal]

With the foreign airlines operating dom sectors as part of a International flight, it's different because you can't separately book those sectors with CX or MU whereas with Jetstar you can and that is why this is unfair

(I removed the "unAustralian" comment. )

I wrote a post last night and removed - mainly because it was a duplicate of the post from harvyk.

I see it as simple. If Jetstar wants the protection and benefits allocated to them being an "Australian" company (eg the right to take on solely domestic passengers from MEL-SYD), then they play by the Australian regulations. This includes paying staff the correct rates.

 

[medhead]

Great, another example of Australian businesses being saddled with Government red tape & uncompetitive practices that only apply to Australian companies!

Did you read that before posting? Sorry why shouldn't Australian business be subject to requirements that apply to Australian companies?

Like I said - Fair enough to have people paid a decent salary but don't do in a way that handicaps one business from competing with others.

The minimum wage does not handicap jetstar from competing with other domestic airlines on domestic routes. All domestic airlines are subject to the minimum wage requirements.

I've flown on two airlines (I'm sure there are more) that fly between DOM ports in OZ - CX CNS-BNE & MU MEL-SYD......sure, they don't carry passengers between ports only however, they drop people off & pick people up at each port. Therefore, someone can jump on CX in Cairns (at a discount/some times free to local options) hitch & ride down to BNE before catching the plane to HGK. Same thing happens with MU between MEL-SYD on the flight I took many people left the plane at MEL & many new passengers hopped on to enjoy a discount/free leg to SYD, before catching the plane to PVG.

If we are worried about minimum wages, conditions & equal pay for equal work why not slug CX & MU with the same constraints? It's not like passengers don't have a plethora of local options between these ports!

Sound very much like you've given 2 examples that involve a domestic leg before connecting to an international leg. So these are not solely domestic flights unlike JQ where international flights can be taken domestically without a requirement to leave the country. JQ in that situation are competing with domestic airlines not international airlines.

 

[amaroo]

Sound very much like you've given 2 examples that involve a domestic leg before connecting to an international leg. So these are not solely domestic flights unlike JQ where international flights can be taken domestically without a requirement to leave the country. JQ in that situation are competing with domestic airlines not international airlines.

Like I said, more red tape/cost inflicted on an Australian business. Sure increase the wages but also ensure similar conditions are applied to foreign operators that take business away from local operators.

IMO the two examples provided are competing against DOM & international local operators.

CX example-

BNE-HGK-BNE departing 17th June & returning 29th June the price for Y=$1,506.72 J=$7,607.72

CNS-BNE-HGK-BNE-CNS on the same flights/day the price for Y=$1,499.72 J=$7600.72

So fly J or Y on CX, CNS-BNE-CNS for free....actually, it's less than free as it saves you $7.72 compared to the dumb suckers that hop on/off at BNE!

It's a great deal and should be encouraged however, not at the expense of local operators that are forced to endure a higher cost base.

 

[oz_mark]

BNE-HGK-BNE departing 17th June & returning 29th June the price for Y=$1,506.72 J=$7,607.72

CNS-BNE-HGK-BNE-CNS on the same flights/day the price for Y=$1,499.72 J=$7600.72

So fly J or Y on CX, CNS-BNE-CNS for free....actually, it's less than free as it saves you $7.72 compared to the dumb suckers that hop on/off at BNE!

It's a great deal and should be encouraged however, not at the expense of local operators that are forced to endure a higher cost base.

Given it is CX, CNS-BNE-CNS shouldn't be available apart from as part of an international itinerary.

The issue with Jetstar is they are providing purely domestic sectors, but dressing them up as international flights. Remember, also, that this came about because Jetstar were working the same people to the point of exhaustion.

 

[amaroo]

Given it is CX, CNS-BNE-CNS shouldn't be available apart from as part of an international itinerary.

The issue with Jetstar is they are providing purely domestic sectors, but dressing them up as international flights. Remember, also, that this came about because Jetstar were working the same people to the point of exhaustion.

Thats my point in regards to the comment - more red tape! It's still a DOM flight operated by a foreign entity that takes business away from local operators.

Fair point on the exhaustion issue. However, not sure how a few extra coins are going to make any positive impact with this issue.

I agree that the J* crew should get fair pay & support the decision in principle however, I take the view that local operators shouldn't be the only ones saddled with uncompetitive practices.

OT, I know of a very large OZ company that fly-in off shore IT workers to perform regular short stints in their Sydney HO.....they come & go, often - wonder what pay scale they are getting.

 

[markis10]

Thats my point in regards to the comment - more red tape! It's still a DOM flight operated by a foreign entity that takes business away from local operators..

How does it take business away from local operators, you cannot book a pure CNS-BNE leg on CX, neither can you book ADL-MEL on CX, but you can book CNS-DRW with JQ with a Thai crew that has a lower operating cost then CNS-DRW with QF link! Same goes for UA SYD-MEL, they cnanot sell tickets locally, JQ can!

 

[medhead]

Like I said, more red tape/cost inflicted on an Australian business. Sure increase the wages but also ensure similar conditions are applied to foreign operators that take business away from local operators.

IMO the two examples provided are competing against DOM & international local operators.

CX example-

BNE-HGK-BNE departing 17th June & returning 29th June the price for Y=$1,506.72 J=$7,607.72

CNS-BNE-HGK-BNE-CNS on the same flights/day the price for Y=$1,499.72 J=$7600.72

So fly J or Y on CX, CNS-BNE-CNS for free....actually, it's less than free as it saves you $7.72 compared to the dumb suckers that hop on/off at BNE!

It's a great deal and should be encouraged however, not at the expense of local operators that are forced to endure a higher cost base.

It is a false example as you can't just fly CNS-BNE-CNS without going to HKG. This is competition in the international market and similar pricing situations can be found with other international operators, including QF, on various routes.

Someone who wants to fly between CNS and BNE only cannot get that price with CX. CX are not competing in the domestic market. Unlike JQ who do compete in the domestic market against QFd and DJ, and have allegedly underpaid their staff against what their domestic competitors are required to pay. To put your argument another way why the hell should QFd and DJ have to pay higher wages than JQ? (in the purely domestic market)


Sent from the Throne

 

[samh004]

Thats my point in regards to the comment - more red tape! It's still a DOM flight operated by a foreign entity that takes business away from local operators.

Fair point on the exhaustion issue. However, not sure how a few extra coins are going to make any positive impact with this issue.

I agree that the J* crew should get fair pay & support the decision in principle however, I take the view that local operators shouldn't be the only ones saddled with uncompetitive practices.

OT, I know of a very large OZ company that fly-in off shore IT workers to perform regular short stints in their Sydney HO.....they come & go, often - wonder what pay scale they are getting.

I guess you're missing the very real fact that the DOM sectors for CX cannot be bought unless part of an international itinerary, such that CNS isn't your final destination, but HKG is!

I thought of something else, conversely if JQ used their foreign arm for the flights, not the Australian arm, they wouldn't be able to sell the DOM seats without pax travelling on to the overseas port as well, but they'd be able to underpay them as much as they liked.

They can only do one or the other, not both. They have to decide what they want more, revenue between SYD-MEL and to pay to Australian standards, or no revenue between SYD-MEL but to pay their staff less. While I know JQ35 is consistently full, I don't know how much they make out of it.


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