SYD-LIM flights on the cards?

[Mattg]

I noticed that the Australian and Peruvian governments signed an Air Services Agreement for the first time this week, which is a prerequisite for airlines of either country offering flights between the two countries.

According to this article, in 2015 40,000 Australians visited Peru and 3,500 Peruvians visited Australia - with this number increasing in double-digits annually.

An agreement was also reached to allow Peruvians to come to Australia on working holiday visas, which will no doubt increase these numbers even further in the future. Further, there are going to be talks in July to create a Free Trade Agreement between Australia and Peru. With the convenience of a direct flight available, I think even more Australians would be likely to visit Peru for either holidays or business, and vice versa. Lima is also a hub for LATAM Airlines and a gateway to Central and the north of South America.

Using the 2015 data, there would be an average of 837 people travelling between Australia and Peru each week - almost enough to fill a 2x weekly QF 787-9s. But once you take the increasing traffic and availability of onward connections into account, I think that by next year Qantas could easily fill 3x weekly 789s from SYD-LIM.

Of course, LATAM Airlines might also be interested.

Personally I think a direct flight to Lima would be fantastic. Any thoughts?

 

[AviationNZ]

I noticed that the Australian and Peruvian governments signed an Air Services Agreement for the first time this week, which is a prerequisite for airlines of either country offering flights between the two countries.

According to this article, in 2015 40,000 Australians visited Peru and 3,500 Peruvians visited Australia - with this number increasing in double-digits annually.

An agreement was also reached to allow Peruvians to come to Australia on working holiday visas, which will no doubt increase these numbers even further in the future. Further, there are going to be talks in July to create a Free Trade Agreement between Australia and Peru. With the convenience of a direct flight available, I think even more Australians would be likely to visit Peru for either holidays or business, and vice versa. Lima is also a hub for LATAM Airlines and a gateway to Central and the north of South America.

Using the 2015 data, there would be an average of 837 people travelling between Australia and Peru each week - almost enough to fill a 2x weekly QF 787-9s. But once you take the increasing traffic and availability of onward connections into account, I think that by next year Qantas could easily fill 3x weekly 789s from SYD-LIM.

Of course, LATAM Airlines might also be interested.

Personally I think a direct flight to Lima would be fantastic. Any thoughts?

Very interesting, and I agree would be great to see. I think South America in general will benefit from a number of new routes opened up in the next 5 years. With the range of the 787's and 350's, I believe RIO and SAO might even be a possibility, with QF, NZ or LA capable of making these routes work flying east from AU/NZ.

 

[defurax]

Is an air service agreement also required for QF to simply codeshare on flights to LIM on AA or LA metal?

 

[Mattg]

Is an air service agreement also required for QF to simply codeshare on flights to LIM on AA or LA metal?

I would have thought so, but QF already codeshare on LA flights between SCL and LIM.

 

[PaulST]

Are Australian airlines still required to have more than 2 engines on flights to South American and Africa or has that changed?

 

[Mattg]

Are Australian airlines still required to have more than 2 engines on flights to South American and Africa or has that changed?

I guess the ETOPS requirements (which don't apply to 4 engine aircraft) could be a factor. But I think I read that the 787-9s come with ETOPS 330 (i.e. they only need to be within 330 minutes of an airport at any given time) which should not be a problem on the SYD-LIM route.

FWIW, I believe that QF are even planning to service JNB and SCL with 787-9s in the long-term (but only after their last 747s are retired).

 

[Boris spatsky]

I guess the ETOPS requirements (which don't apply to 4 engine aircraft) could be a factor. But I think I read that the 787-9s come with ETOPS 330 (i.e. they only need to be within 330 minutes of an airport at any given time) which should not be a problem on the SYD-LIM).

ETOPS terminology was replaced by EDTO a while back - it now does apply to aircraft with more than two engines.

4 engine aircraft require EDTO approval when outside 180 minutes of a divert airfield at the all engine cruise speed in nil wind.

The 787 if it is 330 mins is based on one engine inoperative (which is the 2 engine rule) - so 330 mins is at a slower speed than normal, which means the distance is less.

 

[juddles]

As a very frequent traveller between Australia and Colombia, this news is of extreme interest to me - thank you OP

South America is a big place, so although LIM may appear to be more central, there would be no huge advantage going to Brazil via Peru rather than Chile, and Argentina connections would be longer. In reality, within South America we talk of the ABC of important countries - ie Argentina / Brazil / Chile. Anywhere else is a lesser economy and thus mainly a tourism rather than a business destination.

For me personally I would love a SYD-LIM option, (or better still BOG-SYD). And I think it would really give the Aussies-to-Peru (and Ecuador, etc) a real boost - I think they could double those numbers and have at least three or four 787 or A350 size flights weekly.

The ironic thing is that as the smaller aircraft get such massive range capabilities, and open so many more city pairs, the world will soon starve of slots..........

 

[juddles]

.....Of course, LATAM Airlines might also be interested..... Any thoughts?

Actually, thinking of this a bit more, I have further thoughts.

If Qantas actually hired me to help guide them, I would explain to them a few reasons why this could be an extremely good route for them.

I grew up/have lived/worked most of my life in Sth America, and I understand a few cultural things from this side of the ocean:

1.- LATAM, no matter their recent name change, is, and will always be perceived to be, as Chile's airline. Within Latin America Chile has done very well for itself in the past couple of decades, and have bought up many assets (think public energy grids, pension funds, etc) in many other countries. So there is not a lot of love for Chile from non-Chilean south americans.

2.- Given point (1), if there was a choice for south americans between flying QF or LA out of Lima, LA would be the default NO choice because of this.

3.- Additionally, speaking regarding pax originating in South America, if they want to holiday in Australia, they will want to start that experience as soon as possible - ie on the plane on the way over there. So apart from the negative influence in point (2) for LA, this is a positive point for QF.

4.- From the aussie-originating side of things, who would you choose to do a very long trans-ocean flight? A south american company or Qantas with its amazing reputation?

5.- Colombia is a huge opportunity for this route. The choice now is to go up through LAX, with all the hideousness that LOTFAP entries include, even in transit, or down via Santiago and 12 hr transit connections. Colombia has a very large well-off class, and everyone wants to visit Australia, whether just to big-note themselves, or to study english, or to visit some of the Colombians who are already over there. Colombia HAS MONEY.

In summary, I think that this route would quickly become the preferred route for most south american originating pax, and specifically they would want to fly QF.

 

[Daver6]

I'd imagine the other benefit of direct flights to Columbia might be to bring down the cost of cocaine in Sydney

 

[juddles]

I'd imagine the other benefit of direct flights to Columbia might be to bring down the cost of cocaine in Sydney

Actually, in our dear world there is a need for a scapegoat, a mysterious movie background, exotic material, cinema feed. And Colombia is the traditional place used by people who make money out of selling fiction, even though those same people have never set foot here. Colombia gets a hammering from this. Peru actually produces more cocaine than Colombia does. And another random fact - for every person killed by cocaine, 6 more are struck and killed by lightning. And yet another truth - Colombia earns more money exporting flowers than cocaine.

The power of television / movies...... we all need our dark, mysterious movie setting......

 

[Daver6]

Actually, in our dear world there is a need for a scapegoat, a mysterious movie background, exotic material, cinema feed. And Colombia is the traditional place used by people who make money out of selling fiction, even though those same people have never set foot here. Colombia gets a hammering from this. Peru actually produces more cocaine than Colombia does. And another random fact - for every person killed by cocaine, 6 more are struck and killed by lightning. And yet another truth - Colombia earns more money exporting flowers than cocaine.

The power of television / movies...... we all need our dark, mysterious movie setting......

Well then all the more reason for the flights to Lima rather than Columbia

 

[RooFlyer]

Personally, I think not a chance that Qantas would operate this route ... LIM would have to join the queue of places that it 'should' fly to with its limited fleet (hello, Vancouver). I reckon Qantas will be content to service the south - Chile & Argentina with their tourist and mining traffic.

LATAM .. sure, if the demand is there ... the route would be the gateway to Brazil and the north of the continent ... even to the southern Caribbean if you want to avoid the ever-more problematic USA transit.

 

[Must...Fly!]

I'd imagine the other benefit of direct flights to Columbia might be to bring down the cost of cocaine in Sydney

Anyone after some discount Bose QC35s?

 

[Himeno]

I noticed that the Australian and Peruvian governments signed an Air Services Agreement for the first time this week, which is a prerequisite for airlines of either country offering flights between the two countries.

There was an agreement signed in June 2013. It wasn't a full treaty. That agreement allowed for 7 flights per week.

 

[dajop]

LATAM .. sure, if the demand is there ... the route would be the gateway to Brazil and the north of the continent ... even to the southern Caribbean if you want to avoid the ever-more problematic USA transit.

If you look at great circle map, I doubt if LIM would be a better gateway to Brazil than SCL. Via SCL is 3 hrs or so shorter (or at least to the important commercial centres). Here is the extra miles via LIM vs via SCL: Sao Paulo 1434 , Rio 1422, Brasilia 1007, Salvador 1035

By way of contrast, the likes of Panama City and Bogota are shorter via LIM, by 617 and 562 miles respectively.

 

[Boca68]

I'd imagine the other benefit of direct flights to Columbia might be to bring down the cost of cocaine in Sydney

Just don't let the drug cartels catch you spelling Colombia as Columbia again. Does quite get them peeved! And to be fair, Peru produces more coca/cocaine than Colombia.

But, I travel to LIM several times a year. My partner is peruvian. I personally would love this route, but I realise it is, most likely, never going to happen.

 

[RooFlyer]

If you look at great circle map, I doubt if LIM would be a better gateway to Brazil than SCL. Via SCL is 3 hrs or so shorter (or at least to the important commercial centres). Here is the extra miles via LIM vs via SCL: Sao Paulo 1434 , Rio 1422, Brasilia 1007, Salvador 1035

By way of contrast, the likes of Panama City and Bogota are shorter via LIM, by 617 and 562 miles respectively.

Ah, fair 'nuf. Perils of not checking.

 

[dajop]

Ah, fair 'nuf. Perils of not checking.

Understandable though, we often think of the worlds as we usually see it on a map, and not account for the poles...

vs

 

[RooFlyer]

Join SCL and LIM and that looks like a status run to me.