Should Virgin Australia bring back domestic premium economy?

[VAGoldFlyer]

Longtime reader of AFF and some other Aussie frequent flyer websites and blogs but just signed up this evening and wanted to share something with everybody here.

Earlier this month I was invited by Virgin Australia to attend a focus group where the airline wanted to workshop the idea of introducing a form of premium economy on domestic routes. I suppose that should be 're-introducing' because of course the airline had a 'premium' cabin instead of business class back when it was Virgin Blue.

Anyway their idea is to expand the Space + arrangement which on the Boeing 737s is currently just the exit rows and convert the first three rows of economy into an extra legroom area by increasing the spacing between each row. Apparently most American airlines have this and passengers pay for the extra legroom, dedicated overhead lockers etc. Virgin also asked us to think about the name and if 'premium economy' or 'economy plus' or some other name might be more appealing than Space +.

I said that I liked the idea, I am a Gold Velocity member and always fly in domestic economy class so depending on the price difference to economy or even if I could use points to 'upgrade' this could do very well for me.

What does everybody here think about having 'premium economy' rows at the front of Virgin's Boeing 737s?

 

[bullerdude]

That would spell the end of the unofficial Platinum free access to Row 3...


W00t - Post 1000!

 

[Marty_]

Since they would almost certainly do away with row 3 only to charge extra for it, I would be very sad.

If I want a better seat on a 737 I do a points upgrade to business. It takes hardly any points as it is and the difference is actually worth it for flights 2hrs+.

Some kind of "economy +" option would be tokenistic, not worth the price, remove row 3, and probably bump up the number of points needed for a business upgrade.

Bad idea.

 

[mannej]

I'm not sure this would go down well with the Row 3 WPs.

 

[Pleb Status]

A massive NO to this idea!

They want to introduce a charge for something I already get for free (and provide nothing in return) and they will most likely reduce the seat pitch in some of the remaining rows to make the room for the new Space+ seats. How did they sell this 'enhancement' to the focus group?

 

[Major]

I'm also a NO to this idea.

instead of starting at row 7 now, I may as well board from the rear stairs and just take any seat.

What a silly idea

 

[Milefest]

Y+ has made the Y experience worse on american carriers because they have to differentiate the cabin classes by removing services that already exist on Y.

 

[eastwest101]

How about they just get real with the price of their B737 J class product? Or improve their Y class product so they aren't competing with JQ and TT, or improve their Y class product so its perceived to be superior to the QF Y class product seeing as QF are jamming more pax in their B737 fleet? People will pay a little more for a demonstrably better product in Y class - as demonstrated by the price premium that QF charges for Y.

If they want to compete with JQ and TT then they should rip out the J class cabins, remove the Velocity frequent flyer scheme and eliminate the lounges entirely and repaint the aircraft in yellow and black TT colours....

The fact that they are even wasting their money on focus groups says to me that VA management have lost touch with reality and with their own customers, its no surprise they are losing money hand over fist despite having only one occasionally incompetent competitor. This is from a company who still cant even get their website to operate properly after rolling out Sabre and a new web site 3 to 4 years ago.

 

[Jack_OC]

How about they just get real with the price of their B737 J class product? Or improve their Y class product so they aren't competing with JQ and TT, or improve their Y class product so its perceived to be superior to the QF Y class product seeing as QF are jamming more pax in their B737 fleet? People will pay a little more for a demonstrably better product in Y class - as demonstrated by the price premium that QF charges for Y.

The bizarre thing is, I don't think QF charges a significant premium for Y compared to VA anymore. In my recent experience, VA fares have rarely been more than about $10 cheaper than QF, and it's not unusual to find that VA is more expensive. I just booked MEL-BNE return for next week - I paid $398 with QF, but the cheapest option with VA at reasonably similar times would have been $599, and that was booking the new Getaway fare on the way back - i.e. heavily restricted with reduced points and SC earn, and no Fly Ahead benefit. Who in their right mind would pay an extra $200 to fly with VA instead of QF? And that wasn't just some anomaly at a specific time - QF had cheaper fares available throughout the day in both directions.

This situation in reverse used to be pretty standard - i.e. QF being significantly more expensive. I think QF only got away with it as there were people who basically wouldn't even consider flying with anyone else, but I really doubt if anyone feels that level of attachment to VA!

The fact that they are even wasting their money on focus groups says to me that VA management have lost touch with reality and with their own customers, its no surprise they are losing money hand over fist despite having only one occasionally incompetent competitor. This is from a company who still cant even get their website to operate properly after rolling out Sabre and a new web site 3 to 4 years ago.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[VAGoldFlyer]

How did they sell this 'enhancement' to the focus group?

They weren't trying to 'sell' it, it was more sounding us out on the idea and what we thought would make this work. There is an article on the Australian Business Traveller website about this which has some more details on the proposed legroom (sorry I can't post a link to ABT as I am a new member) but Virgin also asked about other ways to improve the value of this such as letting these passengers also use the business class toilets instead of going all the way to the back of the plane to queue for the economy lavs, which I thought was not a bad idea especially on longer flights such as BNE-MEL and SYD-PER.

 

[Marty_]

Virgin Australia mulls 'economy plus' extra legroom rows - Australian Business Traveller

VA have confirmed they have no plans to do this. Though they did the focus groups.

 

[DavidFlynn]

Virgin Australia mulls 'economy plus' extra legroom rows - Australian Business Traveller
VA have confirmed they have no plans to do this.

Not quite... Virgin Australia said it "had no plans to announce regarding the addition of Space+ rows to the front of economy class across its Boeing 737 fleet" (italics mine, for emphasis). Having no plans 'to announce' is not the same as having no plans at all...

 

[Marty_]

This is true! I read very quickly and missed the subtle twist.

If I lose row 3 then I am done. I used to love VA, but there has been a slow, steady erosion of goodwill for ~18 months now. I want them to succeed, I want to like them, but they just keep turning their backs on their frequent flyers. It seems they'll get rid of me if they die trying (and they might).

Since I secured platinum until June 2018 I have been building status elsewhere. Only flown VA once in the past few months.

 

[Cryptarcadian]

Get rid of row 3, and there's well and truly no point in platinum over gold – I for one wouldn't bother.

On the other hand, give platinums complimentary access to these seats and that's a real benefit that would justify making an effort to keep the status.

 

[pauly7]

Get rid of row 3, and there's well and truly no point in platinum over gold – I for one wouldn't bother.

On the other hand, give platinums complimentary access to these seats and that's a real benefit that would justify making an effort to keep the status.

You don't need platinum to get row 3 anyway, gold does the trick just fine with 99% strike rate

 

[pauly7]

They weren't trying to 'sell' it, it was more sounding us out on the idea and what we thought would make this work. There is an article on the Australian Business Traveller website about this which has some more details on the proposed legroom (sorry I can't post a link to ABT as I am a new member) but Virgin also asked about other ways to improve the value of this such as letting these passengers also use the business class toilets instead of going all the way to the back of the plane to queue for the economy lavs, which I thought was not a bad idea especially on longer flights such as BNE-MEL and SYD-PER.

They don't really police 'the rope' on the longer flights anyway as evidenced by my last 2 trans cons flights where I was downgraded from an a330 to a 737. I think they just give up after the first couple of people walk through.

 

[Pleb Status]

They weren't trying to 'sell' it, it was more sounding us out on the idea and what we thought would make this work. There is an article on the Australian Business Traveller website about this which has some more details on the proposed legroom (sorry I can't post a link to ABT as I am a new member) but Virgin also asked about other ways to improve the value of this such as letting these passengers also use the business class toilets instead of going all the way to the back of the plane to queue for the economy lavs, which I thought was not a bad idea especially on longer flights such as BNE-MEL and SYD-PER.

Do you know if there were any Platinum VFF in the focus group? I think the responses to the questions would differ significantly as you move up the elite tree. Also, did anyone ask how they additional space was going to be 'found' within the aircraft? Closing up other seats?

Space+ is $40-65 per sector on PER-East Coast flights, so a Red may find some value in this proposal overall, particularly if they add priority boarding like DL does. However $40-65 just to use the J toilet is not going to sell a WP on it and this suggestion downgrades the J experience as well by more than doubling the access to the J toilet.

Reading the VA response (if reported correctly by ABT), it is only a matter of when they pull the trigger on this (or just making row 3 Space+). SG/WP only just escaped the upcoming seat selection fees on Gateway fares so I cannot see how these new seats will be complementary at the time of booking.

 

[Milefest]

On the other hand, give platinums complimentary access to these seats and that's a real benefit that would justify making an effort to keep the status.

The problem is that I doubt the complimentary access would be guaranteed for plats like it is now - it would probably be more like an upgrade waitlist. Though, my real concern isn't that I'd lose row 3, it's that services will diminish in Y to make Y+ more enticing. Legroom isn't enough to get people to upgrade - as we've seen with extra legroom seats, it's the additional service and other perks that people want.

 

[Mr Pumblechook]

Meh I've retreated to row 4 anyway (I found row 3 was always full of first timers trying to stow their baggage on the floor) so I reckon VA should get some extra cash for row 3 if they can. Personally, once I've got 31 in. pitch, I want more shoulder room, not more leg room, so I wouldn't see this in the same light as the attempted seat selection fees.

A visitor's pass to the J cabin is the dumbest thing I've heard in a while unless they're looking to devalue the 737 J proposition.

 

[Cryptarcadian]

I'm tall enough I'd actually miss row 3, and I currently benefit most from it when flying the golden triangle during peak hours when it's rarer for SG to successfully select row 3. Luckily it's mostly with other pax who do actually fly frequently, so people know what they're doing... but I get what you mean about first-timers. I remember a woman trying to argue with a VA staffer recently that it was OK for her to keep her bag there (on a Sunday flight)!

The problem is that I doubt the complimentary access would be guaranteed for plats like it is now - it would probably be more like an upgrade waitlist.

VA may not be particularly keen to follow in Air New Zealand's footsteps nowadays, but they could certainly do it well, the way that NZ offers them — in fact, on some seat maps NZ have rows 4-exit on the left side aircraft as dedicated frequent flyer seating, and the right side as purchasable extra legroom/towards-the-front-for-the-sake-of-it seats (and that's in addition to a Y+ product with food in the first 3 rows, but that's in replacement of J).

That really wouldn't be bad. Would keep FFers happy and still make some extra dollars for VA.

Though, my real concern isn't that I'd lose row 3, it's that services will diminish in Y to make Y+ more enticing. Legroom isn't enough to get people to upgrade - as we've seen with extra legroom seats, it's the additional service and other perks that people want.

Haha what further services could VA remove from Y though? Get rid of the "snack" or even the complimentary cup of water or juice again? Remove free bags once more? It'd be like they couldn't make up their mind about what kind of airline they want to be... surely not VA!