Safety, children and oxygen masks

[purplegez]

Can anyone tell me what the 'rule' might be regarding seating of children on a flight without an adult able to easily reach them in the event of an emergency?

I recently was on a QF flight to Broome from Perth. Three children were seated together, the youngest, aged about 4 or 5, by the window, the next oldest, about 6 or 7 in the middle and in the aisle seat, a child of about 8 or 9 years. The male person in charge of these children was in the adjacent aisle seat. If there had been an emergency where the oxygen masks dropped, would the children have been able to use them without an adult to help them? I must admit I was a bit surprised that the adult didn't have to sit between them.

I would be interested to hear from anyone working for Qantas who can answer this question.

 

[medhead]

As there were 3 children, I'm not sure how sitting the adult between the children would work. That would mean that the one child would then have to sit were the adult was sitting, across the aisle. With the parent in between the other 2 children that 3rd child would be even more inaccessible.

Besides there is no urgent, must do it in 3 seconds, need to put on the oxygen mask. As the safety video says, fit your mask and then assist others. there is no reason that an 8 year old could fit their own mask and help the other children under direction of the parent. in fact the 7 year old could fit a mask and I reckon my 5 year old could fit a mask. These kids are rather amazing you know, just like little people.

 

[milehighclub]

If the masks fall - it's pretty urgent.

Depending on your cruising altitude you have as little as 15 seconds to get a mask on. Trying to fit your own and 3 kids in a panicky situation would take longer than that.

Children probably wouldn't be able to reach the mask if it drops. The masks don't drop all the way down, they only become visible above. Pulling down extends the mask and begins the oxygen flow.

 

[medhead]

If the masks fall - it's pretty urgent.

Depending on your cruising altitude you have as little as 15 seconds to get a mask on. Trying to fit your own and 3 kids in a panicky situation would take longer than that.

Children probably wouldn't be able to reach the mask if it drops. The masks don't drop all the way down, they only become visible above. Pulling down extends the mask and begins the oxygen flow.

I'm not sure it's that urgent. The issue is lack of oxygen, people can hold their breathe for 30 to 60 seconds without any immediate issues, which is plenty of time. People are not going to keel over and die after 15 seconds. There is some variation for a rapid onset hypoxia but provided the treatment is provided in 3 or 4 minutes there couldn't be that much damage done*. So parent could fit the mask in 15 seconds as advised and then assist the children as per the safety video instruction.

* Pure speculation of course

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I'm not sure it's that urgent. The issue is lack of oxygen, people can hold their breathe for 30 to 60 seconds without any immediate issues, which is plenty of time. People are not going to keel over and die after 15 seconds. There is some variation for a rapid onset hypoxia but provided the treatment is provided in 3 or 4 minutes there couldn't be that much damage done*. So parent could fit the mask in 15 seconds as advised and then assist the children as per the safety video instruction.

* Pure speculation of course

Unfortunately passengers do not have a warning about an explosive or rapid decompression and can't take several deep breaths in order to hold for 30-60 seconds. There is no oxygen to breath in, let alone someone's ability to do that as objects are flying around the cabin. You may also suffer significant lung damage (more so in explosive decompression than a rapid decompression).

You are correct in stating you will not keel over and die, but you will be incapacitated (much the same as being severely drunk) and unable to co-ordinate your movements sufficiently to put on an oxygen mask after 15 seconds.

Depending on how quickly the aircraft decends you will regain conciousness as you say (provided your lungs are ok) - and generally aircraft will decend as quickly as possible in such circumstances.

It has been reported that autopsys on some passengers involved in a mid-air break up of their aircraft showed pax to have been knocked out by the initial explosion and/or decompression, but then to have regained conciousness during the fall to earth (outside what was left of the aircraft).

 

[Happy Trails]

Do oxygen masks serve any useful purpose anyway?
I'm not aware of any incident where their deployment has made a significant difference to the outcome. But I'm happy to be enlightened.
And I'm talking about passengers of course, not aircrew.

 

[milehighclub]

I'm not sure it's that urgent. The issue is lack of oxygen, people can hold their breathe for 30 to 60 seconds without any immediate issues, which is plenty of time. People are not going to keel over and die after 15 seconds.

Sorry I should of been more clear - You certainly won't die after that 15 seconds, but you are very likely to pass out rendering yourself useless and unable to assist anyone.

 

[Worldtraveller8888]

The time you have is a function of the altitude of the aircraft when it depressurises. The 15 seconds is if the aircraft depressurises at 40,000ft. Few flights, particulalry long-haul flights, ever get to 40,000ft.

At 35,000ft it's about 45 seconds. Even longer if the aircraft is lower.

I would expect that the father, or others around the children would have time to fit their mask then assist the children (if they hadn't already gotten to the masks themselves).

WT

 

[ejb]

The time you have is a function of the altitude of the aircraft when it depressurises. The 15 seconds is if the aircraft depressurises at 40,000ft. Few flights, particulalry long-haul flights, ever get to 40,000ft.

At 35,000ft it's about 45 seconds. Even longer if the aircraft is lower.

I would expect that the father, or others around the children would have time to fit their mask then assist the children (if they hadn't already gotten to the masks themselves).

WT

My PER-SYD flight on Saturday was cruising at 41000ft.

If the kids had watched the safety video my guess is they would be able to handle the masks between them without their father helping as he would more than likely have a hard time getting to them.

ejb

 

[markis10]

Do oxygen masks serve any useful purpose anyway?
I'm not aware of any incident where their deployment has made a significant difference to the outcome. But I'm happy to be enlightened.
And I'm talking about passengers of course, not aircrew.

A ryanair aircraft and its crew only realized they had an issue when they were deployed, its fair to say the possibility of another Payne Stewart incident was likely had they not deployed:

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3496-0.pdf

The Aloha and UA incidents both had damage to the oxy system preventing an accurate assessment of their help in those situation.

 

[purplegez]

As there were 3 children, I'm not sure how sitting the adult between the children would work. That would mean that the one child would then have to sit were the adult was sitting, across the aisle. With the parent in between the other 2 children that 3rd child would be even more inaccessible.

The adult could sit in the aisle seat with two children on one side of him and the other (the oldest child?) across the aisle, he would be able to reach all of them. In the event of masks dropping I imagine that the seat belt light would already be on so moving around the cabin would not be an option??
Again I ask if there is acually a regulation regarding the seating of children in proximity of an adult for safety reasons?

 

[medhead]

Unfortunately passengers do not have a warning about an explosive or rapid decompression and can't take several deep breaths in order to hold for 30-60 seconds. There is no oxygen to breath in, let alone someone's ability to do that as objects are flying around the cabin. You may also suffer significant lung damage (more so in explosive decompression than a rapid decompression).

You are correct in stating you will not keel over and die, but you will be incapacitated (much the same as being severely drunk) and unable to co-ordinate your movements sufficiently to put on an oxygen mask after 15 seconds.

Depending on how quickly the aircraft decends you will regain conciousness as you say (provided your lungs are ok) - and generally aircraft will decend as quickly as possible in such circumstances.

It has been reported that autopsys on some passengers involved in a mid-air break up of their aircraft showed pax to have been knocked out by the initial explosion and/or decompression, but then to have regained conciousness during the fall to earth (outside what was left of the aircraft).

My reference to holding breathe is an indicator of the typical sort of time that people can function without oxygen. Provided the people around the kids put on their masks immediately. Then there is no major issue if the kids get them on after a little bit longer time.

Other effects like lung damage and being knocked out are the result of the decompression not lack of oxygen. So are not going to be prevented by putting on a mask in 15 seconds.

In the case of the Helios flight I thought some of those people lasted quite a while before passing out. Didn't the airforce pilots report seeing movement? But then that was a gradual decompression.

 

[medhead]

The adult could sit in the aisle seat with two children on one side of him and the other (the oldest child?) across the aisle, he would be able to reach all of them. In the event of masks dropping I imagine that the seat belt light would already be on so moving around the cabin would not be an option??
Again I ask if there is acually a regulation regarding the seating of children in proximity of an adult for safety reasons?

Umm I imagine the seat belt light would be put on after the masks were deployed. The seat belt light certainly wouldn't prevent me for trying to get up to assist a child.

Is there a regulation? I don't know. But I doubt it. (no doubt I'm wrong on that point and someone will correct me)

 

[trooper]

If the decompression was rapid enough to make getting the masks on a matter of seconds, I strongly suspect there would be other - more serious problems - than just the decompression! :shock:

Useful consciousness even at high altitude is a function of the individual... but I reckon you'd have to be in pretty poor shape to be "out" after 15 seconds...

The rule AFAIK for unpressurised flight is "oxygen on above 12000'" Yet I've spent 15-20 minutes between 12 and 17000 with no noticeable effects at all.... and I was a smoker back in those days so I imagine my respiratory system isn't that great!

 

[markis10]

The rule AFAIK for unpressurised flight is "oxygen on above 12000'" Yet I've spent 15-20 minutes between 12 and 17000 with no noticeable effects at all.... and I was a smoker back in those days so I imagine my respiratory system isn't that great!

Not to mention the numerous Mt Everest Conquests at 29000ft without oxygen, of course slow acclimatisation would help with non jet powered ascents. The symptoms of Hypoxia are rarely noticed by those suffering from it in an aircraft sense.

 

[737]

The adult could sit in the aisle seat with two children on one side of him and the other (the oldest child?) across the aisle, he would be able to reach all of them. In the event of masks dropping I imagine that the seat belt light would already be on so moving around the cabin would not be an option??

Again I ask if there is acually a regulation regarding the seating of children in proximity of an adult for safety reasons?

Umm I imagine the seat belt light would be put on after the masks were deployed. The seat belt light certainly wouldn't prevent me for trying to get up to assist a child.

Is there a regulation? I don't know. But I doubt it. (no doubt I'm wrong on that point and someone will correct me)

No, there isn't any regulation that requires parents to be seated with children. As long as they are in the same cabin then there is no problem. They could be seated in front, behind, across, or over the other side of the parents so wished (but rarely happens).

Whenever a depressuristaion occurs, when the cabin air pressure exceeds that of equivalent to 14.000ft, then the masks will deploy, the seat belt sign will come on, and an automated PA will be made to tell everyone what to do (sit down, put on masks, breath normally, etc...).

It would be pretty silly to try and get up to help your kids, the aircraft will descend very quickly and as cabin crew, we are told to IMMEDIATELY don an oxygen mask, occupy a seat, fasten your seatbelt and instruct others to do so as practicable.

In terms of unaccompanied minors (for those who are wondering) they are given a personal brief at the start of the flight to explain what to do.

 

[medhead]

Thanks for the information. I was wondering about unaccompanied minors.

I should have put an * on my "try to get up to help kids". Obviously I wouldn't do that during a rapid descent. Or I'd lean across the aisle or something first.

It was pretty silly when I was floating down a creek in a car as well. But I did manage to think my way out of it.

It would be pretty silly to try and get up to help your kids, the aircraft will descend very quickly and as cabin crew, we are told to IMMEDIATELY don an oxygen mask, occupy a seat, fasten your seatbelt and instruct others to do so as practicable.

 

[Worldtraveller8888]

It would be pretty silly to try and get up to help your kids

If my kid was over the aisle and they didn't fit a mask, I would get up!

Yes the aircraft will descend quickly, but it won't always be able to descend immediately to an altitude that allows the cabin crew to begin assisting passengers. On most of the Asia-Europe routings, you could be without the assistance of cabin crew for up to 25-30 minutes whilst the aircraft is over high terrain.

 

[straitman]

The time you have is a function of the altitude of the aircraft when it depressurises. The 15 seconds is if the aircraft depressurises at 40,000ft. Few flights, particulalry long-haul flights, ever get to 40,000ft.

At 35,000ft it's about 45 seconds. Even longer if the aircraft is lower.

I would expect that the father, or others around the children would have time to fit their mask then assist the children (if they hadn't already gotten to the masks themselves).

WT

My SYD-MEL A330 flight yesterday was a cruising altitude of 40,000ft, so yes it does happen and is becoming more common with the newer generation aircraft.

I suggest people have a read of these links.

1. Uncontrolled decompression: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2. Images
3. SKYbrary Explosive Decompression.
4. Time of useful consciousness.
   

The comments under the Discussion heading in the third reference are particularly noteworthy. ie The cabin air may fill with dust and debris, and fog caused by an associated drop in temperature and change in relative humidity. Crew may be momentarily dazed or shocked, especially if the event was unexpected, and may therefore be slow to fit oxygen masks.

In addition to the fourth reference the following should be noted.
These times have been established from observations over a period of years and are for an individual at rest. Any exercise will reduce the time considerably. For example, usually upon exposure to hypoxia at FL 250, an average individual has a TUC of 3 to 5 minutes. The same individual, after performing 10 deep knee bends, will have a TUC in the range of 1 to 1.5 minutes.

A rapid decompression can reduce the TUC by up to 50 percent caused by the forced exhalation of the lungs during decompression and the extremely rapid rate of ascent.

I have been through an explosive decompression in a chamber and even with the knowledge that it was about to happen I can assure people that it is frightening and that people do pass out very quickly.

 

[straitman]

If my kid was over the aisle and they didn't fit a mask, I would get up!

In light of my comments about I humbly suggest that rethinking that strategy would be a good idea.

Yes the aircraft will descend quickly, but it won't always be able to descend immediately to an altitude that allows the cabin crew to begin assisting passengers. On most of the Asia-Europe routings, you could be without the assistance of cabin crew for up to 25-30 minutes whilst the aircraft is over high terrain.

This would be extremely rare as once things had stabilised the crew, in most situations would be able to move around using portable oxygen. A descent to an altitude where useful consciousness was reasonable would almost always be available.