Why do airlines sometimes play “chicken” with the SYD curfew?

[Homer]

A colleague was on a DJ flight from MEL-SYD last night that had a delayed departure. Once onboard the flight crew advised the pax that they believed they could make it to SYD before the 11pm curfew. However at about 10:30pm, and at what felt to my colleague like “halfway” to SYD, they announced they were turning back to MEL because they realised they couldn’t make it to SYD by 11pm. DJ accommodated all the pax that required accommodation in hotels and my colleague was in bed around 1am, then up at 4:30am to get to the airport for a 6:30am flight to SYD. My colleague, who is a calm, thoughtful sort of a bloke, says it seemed to him as though the whole incident left hundreds of people feeling very angry.

My question is: why would DJ try to make it when it seems to me like it was always going to be a pretty close call? Is it considered better to try and then fail, and perhaps pass the blame on to the SYD curfew instead of their own resources/scheduling, rather than bite the bullet up front and accommodate pax for the night?

 

[nlagalle]

It's probably worth the risk of trying to make the curfew than the cost of just hotelling everyone for the night.

 

[markis10]

Airlines know that they need to be seen to doing all they can to get passengers to their destination, its highly likely that they were confident they would be close or they would get a dispensation and it became evident that was not the case after departure. Given they dont get a refund on the fuel etc, its not a decision that would be taken likely.

 

[anat0l]

A colleague was on a DJ flight from MEL-SYD last night that had a delayed departure. Once onboard the flight crew advised the pax that they believed they could make it to SYD before the 11pm curfew. However at about 10:30pm, and at what felt to my colleague like “halfway” to SYD, they announced they were turning back to MEL because they realised they couldn’t make it to SYD by 11pm. DJ accommodated all the pax that required accommodation in hotels and my colleague was in bed around 1am, then up at 4:30am to get to the airport for a 6:30am flight to SYD. My colleague, who is a calm, thoughtful sort of a bloke, says it seemed to him as though the whole incident left hundreds of people feeling very angry.

My question is: why would DJ try to make it when it seems to me like it was always going to be a pretty close call? Is it considered better to try and then fail, and perhaps pass the blame on to the SYD curfew instead of their own resources/scheduling, rather than bite the bullet up front and accommodate pax for the night?

From a bit of research on FlightStats, I take it your colleague was flying DJ899 last night? FlightStats gives the status as Cancelled (i.e. no sign that the flight left and then was turned back).

Checking the flights on the MEL-SYD route on FlightStats, it appears that there were a gaggle of carriers yesterday that were getting quite delayed flying into SYD as the end of the night approached. Given this pattern, perhaps it was not unusual that DJ899, supposedly the last MEL-SYD flight to arrive for the night, would just scrape in for the curfew, let alone when it was delayed that it had a good chance of not making it by then.

There are many theories as to why - here are a few (and I assume no expert knowledge in any of these)....

The first is that there was probably a thought that they could fly faster to SYD and make up some time for the delay. This may be true especially if it was hypothesised that the proposed flying time would still allow DJ to make it into SYD with a few minutes to spare (as it stands, DJ had theoretically up to 20 minutes before it would have almost no chance of making it to SYD with time to spare).

The second is that SYD ATC might have given DJ clearance to arrive into SYD within the curfew, but other factors delayed DJ's departure from MEL after the approval was given, and the clearance was revoked by SYD after the flight had taken off.

There are passenger related factors as to why the flight would be delayed. That could be enough to delay it so that it wouldn't be able to make it into SYD on time.

I think it's not a case of do the airlines play chicken as much as decisions take longer to be made compared to the frequency of the change of circumstances which affect those decisions.

Ironically enough, the last QF flight from MEL-SYD, QF494, arrived OK last night. It was 37 minutes delayed. sched arrival 2225h; touchdown on runway at SYD 2255h and docked in at gate at 2302h. Looks like QF was trying to beat the clock, too, but in its case, made it.

 

[NM]

I suppose if they put people onto the aircraft and fly halfway to SYD and back, they have an extra hour to make ground arrangements and rebookings without having to deal with a long queue of disgruntled passengers :shock:

 

[markis10]

I once had a BA flight going around for 8 hours in circles above Canberra because Sydney was closed due to fog and the pax wanted to be on their way, the moment it turned back to Mel we opened but it did not have enough reserves to turn around, cest la vie!

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Airlines know that they need to be seen to doing all they can to get passengers to their destination, its highly likely that they were confident they would be close or they would get a dispensation and it became evident that was not the case after departure. Given they dont get a refund on the fuel etc, its not a decision that would be taken likely.

Whilst dispensation may be given in the case of an in-flight medical emergency or a technical problem with the aircraft, authorities don't appear to grant dispensations for flights running behind schedule.

It would have to be a very good reason & simply running behind schedule just doesn't cut it. Pretty much a case of too bad so sad.

 

[markis10]

Whilst dispensation may be given in the case of an in-flight medical emergency or a technical problem with the aircraft, authorities don't appear to grant dispensations for flights running behind schedule.

It would have to be a very good reason & simply running behind schedule just doesn't cut it. Pretty much a case of too bad so sad.

Yep, I used to be one of those authorities that did grant dispensation, there was no room to move in terms of what was ok and what was not.

 

[kamchatsky]

I always thought the SYD curfew was from 10pm onwards? All flights must depart before 10pm?

 

[markis10]

I always thought the SYD curfew was from 10pm onwards? All flights must depart before 10pm?

It has always been 11PM close 6AM open in general, there are some dispensations and extra rules, such as specific runways to be used for departure on weekends in the buffer hours (10PM onwards and until 7AM in the morning) and at night between 10.45-11PM.

For international scheduled movements there are arrivals allowed between 5AM and 6PM but must not exceed 35 for the week with a daily max of 7. Its also important to note for departing aircraft, the time taxi clearance is received is the time the curfew is applied, so actual departures may occur later without limitation.

 

[Mal]

There are plenty of reasons why airlines will play "chicken".

- The requirement for the plane to be somewhere for an early flight the next morning.
- Having staff in the right place.
- The cost of additional accommodation at the departure airport.
- Trying to show passengers that they couldn't make it (The old "Why didn't you try. We could have easily made it" type argument).
- The chance that they might get a dispensation.
- The chance of favourable flying conditions.

Of course the costs of a failed attempt are huge - fuel, catering, take-off/landing fees etc. But obviously they are worth the attempt at times.

Note some carriers will take off, try for the curfew and then divert somewhere... Then arrange busses at midnight for the pax, followed by a several hour bus journey. Not going to mention names, but it has occurred before in Oz!

 

[YQY]

For international scheduled movements there are arrivals allowed between 5AM and 6PM but must not exceed 35 for the week with a daily max of 7. Its also important to note for departing aircraft, the time taxi clearance is received is the time the curfew is applied, so actual departures may occur later without limitation.

And they must land over Botany bay on 34L. However this morning - I was awaken 5am by a Jet flying over Drummoyne .

 

[markis10]

And they must land over Botany bay on 34L. However this morning - I was awaken 5am by a Jet flying over Drummoyne .

You were awoken by a plane doing exactly what is required, attempting to land on 34L, what you heard was BA15 doing a missed approach, I am sure BA apologize for the inconvenience and hope you appreciate the alternative may have created a lot more noise . 4 Minutes later QF6 did the same thing.

 

[medhead]

You were awoken by a plane doing exactly what is required, attempting to land on 34L, what you heard was BA15 doing a missed approach, I am sure BA apologize for the inconvenience and hope you appreciate the alternative may have created a lot more noise . 4 Minutes later QF6 did the same thing.

Although the noise of the alternative might not have been heard a Drummoyne.

 

[anat0l]

the alternative may have created a lot more noise

What, like a plane crashing, people burning and dying, ambulance sirens wailing, news crews rushing etc. etc., whilst the majority of people in SYD who choose to endorse this idiotic curfew don't give half a toss, except that BA broke a curfew?

4 Minutes later QF6 did the same thing.

So either ATC is a little asleep that morning or some pilot's aims are a bit off....

 

[markis10]

So either ATC is a little asleep that morning or some pilot's aims are a bit off....

ATC have nothing to do with an aircrafts approach other than to provide those magical words "clear to land" once the aircraft is on the tower frequency, they do tend to get busy though when they hear "Speedbird 15 going around". I would suggest the fog played a part in the events, a lear overshot after QF6 as well. To quote BA15 this morning "we saw absolutely nothing".

 

[JeniSkunk]

There are plenty of reasons why airlines will play "chicken".
- Having staff in the right place.

Having staff in the right place caught Qantas last night for the 9:05pm CityFlyer, QF556. They had to fly in FA from MEL for this flight, which had a number of extra pax from cancelled DJ SYD-BNE flights. Waiting on the extra FA staff meant that the boarding of QF556 did not start till near on 10min after scheduled departure.

Jenifur Charne

 

[NM]

To quote BA15 this morning "we saw absolutely nothing".

I bet they didn't say it with a Sgt Schultz accent

 

[markis10]

I bet they didn't say it with a Sgt Schultz accent

No but it was hardly a British accent either, had a listen the the archive at Live ATC and it was quite interesting, they were not confident that things were getting better and decided to let QF have another go, they were right!

 

[markis10]

Another fine example of a waste of the paper its printed on, or my download allowance:

Dawn brings rude surprise to residents, arriving before 6am airport curfew | The Daily Telegraph

DOZENS of planes are flouting the airport curfew each week, landing before 6am or circling the suburbs and infuriating long-suffering residents. Under the curfew only approved freight aircraft are allowed to take off or land between 11pm and 6am, with limited exceptions made for up to five passenger jets a day, but no more than 24 a week.