Why fly business? I don't see the value?

[flyman]

Hi All
I have always wondered this - why do so many people fly self-funded business long-haul when it costs 3 x or more the cost of economy?

I am a high income earner yet I still fly economy because I consider the cost differential between economy and business to be poor value relative to other areas of life e.g I'd rather buy more expensive goods / other services (e.g $6000 saved on a return flight to UK goes along way to eating out or better hotel, kids school fees etc)
- am i just being cheap or am i missing something?

I've travelled business when work has paid and do enjoy the better food/legroom but for me (being only 5ft 7ins) the legroom is not a massive deal and I can easily listen to audiobooks/read to kill the time in transit

are the people that self fund business travel just very wealthy, misguided or what?
or are there actually very few self funded business travellers out there?

is it because the self funders are all using FF points? but even then I would use FF points for economy flights so that I could travel more or is it a lot more efficient use of FF points to go business?

thanks for any insights

Flyman

 

[thewinchester]

It depends on the flyer, horses for courses and all that.

The value proposition of J over Y is a hard one, because for most people flying J it's not simply a matter of economics.

On long haul services, some people need the practical facilities J provides such as power and the ability to sleep. Others might go for the aesthetics such as the food service or other factors.

And of course we have the loyalty/status aspects, with J flying attracting greater reward and recognition over Y.

Then of course we have to look at some routes and carriers, where flying J, specially if a status chaser, is far more economic than Y, examples being some CX return routes in East Asia and selected US domestic travel on AA.

I wouldn't call anyone who flies J, or F for that matter misguided. They have a preference for why they fly in that cabin, and if they can afford it then all power to them. If you prefer to be in Y or Y+ then stick to it. Money isn't always the deciding factor when choosing what service class to fly.

And for the record, I'm a Y- flyer most times on financial grounds. The exceptions to this have been two paid J sectors on CX (chosen due to minimal price difference & length of travel), one op-up from Y to J (via Y+) on an INT sector, then one J classic award, and two QP ODU's as I'd decided to treat myself before the days of Y/JASAs.

 

[flyman]

What do you mean by

we have to look at some routes and carriers, where flying J, specially if a status chaser, is far more economic than Y, examples being some CX return routes in East Asia and selected US domestic travel on AA.
.

?

why is it more economic to fly J in CX?

 

[Skyring]

I've flown business at my own expense, making three DONE trips in recent years. I'm a night cabbie - the cost of one of these trips is a big chunk out of my income. I don't regret the expense at all.

People say that flying business or first class makes for expensive tucker when you consider the difference in fares. Each meal works out to several hundred dollars, way above what you'll pay in all but the very best restaurants, and frankly the food ain't that great.

Or you look at what the money could buy in other things. Say you fly to London. The difference between Economy and Business fares could pay for your stay at a topnotch innercity hotel, rather than a cramped and cold establishment somewhere south of Brixton.

Or there's alternative travel options. A premium fare to London works out to be - if you do some canny shopping - about as much as sailing there on the Queen Victoria. Put your feet up for a month, watch the world go by, take in the best of British entertainment each night, read a library full of great books, eat yourself senseless, and every other day go ashore at an exotic port. Someone else cleans your cabin, you only unpack once, and you basically have a resort at your disposal.

So why on earth should I pay thousands for such a tenuous pleasure as a comfy chair for twenty-four hours, three or four nice (but not great) meals, and more smiles from daintier cabin attendants?

Because travel is my hobby, they are my thousands to spend, and I don't really enjoy economy longhaul flying. It's an adventure the first time, but the second time around I know what I'm in for and it ain't pretty. I know I'm going to go without sleep - or maybe doze uncomfortably. I've got a choice of looking out the window - for most of each trip it's generally featureless ocean or clouds - and being cut off from the facilities, or taking an aisle seat with the queue for the toilets convenient, but jostled and disturbed all night long.

For a short flight, like between Melbourne and Sydney, it's no hassle. But for longhaul, I go for business if I can afford it.

Then there's the intangibles. Spending four years at Platinum was great. I didn't have to worry too much about luggage limits, I always got good seats, I could skip queues, and best of all, I got access to the nicer lounges. Being able to relax in the First section of the Wing at Hong Kong between longhaul flights, or to have a good meal and a great view in Sydney, or just to take a shower in LAX and then check my email while sipping a spiced tomato juice. The Champagne Bar at Heathrow T5. Express passes through immigration. All good.

Business class is the way air travel should be. Economy - or "cattle class" or "whY" - is what it shouldn't be. First is an indulgence, but if I travel out of my own pocket, I want to enjoy the experience, and I'm not going to be doing too much enjoying at the back of the bus on a longhaul run.

Some people spend thousands on old cars or sports or fancy computers. I choose air travel and holidays overseas.

 

[thewinchester]

why is it more economic to fly J in CX?

Firstly, as I noted this is on select routes. There are some secrets which will never be published in open discussion around these or other frequent flyer forums.

Secondly this is because CX are notorious for charging full fare Y on one-way tickets, and I didn't have the funds available to buy all my tickets as a single PNR at once.

I was flying YASA's on QF to reduce the financial cost of the trip and to assist reaching my qualification goal of QPPS that year.

Other reasons for this, in respect of my specific flight (ICN-xHKG-SIN) were;

1. the J fare compared to full fare Y was only an extra AUD350
2. the resulting &/SC earning rate was more favourable, full fare Y was ~9.375 per SC, opposed to J which was ~7.1875 per SC
3. Regional Y on CX by all reports isn't the most comfortable
4. My then QPNB status would not grant me lounge access at HKG, important as there are no direct flights available on a *O carrier from ICN-SIN (I need the peace and quiet, I simply can't stand sitting in airport terminals, no matter how big and busy they are)
5. Flying CX J allowed me to reach my goal of achieving QPPS within that qualifying year sooner than expected, plus would earn extra points on the last leg of my trip.
6. The additional cabin and status bonus points I'd earn as a result of hitting QPPS mid trip allowing me to reduce my spend further and book this sector as a one-way YASA.
7. I wanted to catch up on some holiday writing and video editing during those sectors, and even with two batteries for my laptop, and the long stop over in HKG (which I'd planned to visit all three CX lounges in anyway), I knew dammed well I didn't have enough portable juice for the whole trip with no access to power in Regional Y.

As you can see, choosing to fly J wasn't a simple matter of "I want to fly J". It's a precise balance of financial and frequent flying economics, routing, times, coupled by pax needs, preferences, and of course sheer SFSC madness.

 

[harvyk]

The long and short of it is because they can...

I'm like yourself, I usually fly Y, but that said I can easily understand why someone would pay thousands extra for a far more comfortable seat... (I would if I could afford it)

The comments of you could save the money and stay in a nicer hotel always seems funny to me... Provided the hotel is relatively clean and in a relatively safe area I don't really care too much about it...

I've stayed in 5 star, I've stayed in 2, and in each case I went back to the hotel to sleep, the rest of the time I was enjoying the destination.

Where as step off the plane after 24 hours of flying Y and you really notice it, step off the plane after 24 hours of flying J or F, and it's not really a big deal... Your usually well rested and well fed...

 

[drron]

We all have different priorities.
Flying J long haul is cheaper than divorce.

 

[albatross710]

A couple of things for me:

Time: A J & F traveler will save a couple of hours on an Aust to Europe fare. Arrive at the airports later and get out of th airports quicker. Speedier immigration makes a difference.

Knowing you can get a reasonable night's sleep also saves me a day each way.

The days after: Having started my journey to Europe with a reasonable night's sleep I feel better when I arrive. This carries through the next few days. When I travel Y I start my 10 day European trip with a rough night which then takes a few low-production days to recover from.

All that being said, when I have the time I prefer to allow a coupe of days either side and spend the Y-J difference on better hotels in my destination.

The key for me is Time - how much can I fit into my life.

 

[knasty]

LAN's $750 J across the ditch is a relatively small $ premium to pay over AirNZ Y. You get lounge, express immigration/Customs, option to credit AA points, and the ability to recline for an hour's sleep (after waking at OMG o'clock).

 

[enigma01au]

I pay for my own J travel. I am not rich at all so I will travel less so I can afford the higher fare. When I go on holidays, I include the journey as part of the holiday experience. Some people will book a cheaper fare so they can spend more on the hotel or shopping at the destination. For me, the experience will be what I remember when I'm old and in my dotage .

 

[Homer]

Everyone is different. In my case, I really dislike long-haul whY. I’ve only done it once and that was enough. So for years now I’ve been paying for J and very occasionally for F. If I couldn’t afford this then I probably wouldn’t take the flight. In my case the price paid for J or F does not affect the type of hotel I stay in or the restaurants I can afford to visit, etc.

Having said that, I’m not a billionaire (in which case the question would be moot). I don’t like wasting money. I still look for a good deal on J or F seats and I save money where I can. I use points where it makes sense to do so though mostly I “bank” points and use them for upgrades to F, etc. (I would never pay for Y or Y+ and hope for an upgrade to J because the risk is that I could be sitting down the back).

 

[JetLagged]

flyman, if you are serious about wanting feedback, then it is not a good idea of potentially berate those whom you are appealing to by calling them misguided!

I fly Y when flying Sydney to Melbourne or Brisbane - anywhere after that I fly J. I'm only 6', but larger build - economy seats just don't do it for me in terms of comfort and ease. Have flown to NZ once in economy - never again (though back then had neither points nor status).

Over the past few years I've been travelling to Asia, Europe and US about 2-4 times a year - always for at least 2 weeks at a time. By flying J I can be assured of walking off the plane without difficulty and then enjoying the first day - rather than being being laid out cold with swollen ankles and a jetlag headache that would fell a moose. After a good nights sleep (usually manage at least 8 hours on SIN-LHR leg, for instance), I can ghet in a car, drive up to Cambridge or Norfolk or alisbury - walk around for a few hours, have a snooze then be right as reign. That would NOT be the case if I had flown practically upright for 24 hrs in whY!

Yes, I am self-funded traveller. No, I am not wealthy. Like others here, I have my own list of priorities: I don't bother with much purchases of knick-knacks, look for bargain (but good) accommodation; definitely look for specials in airfares (like buying from UK and US and using RTW tickets when possible).

Misguided (i.e. deluded is what I read into your comment) I might be in other people's eyes: but people should always look into the mirror before reflecing on others.

BTW: using FF points to upgrade makes for economic sense. 60,000 FFP to upgrade longhaul is worth on average $6-8k saved - which can then be used for other things.

 

[MH_fan]

It comes down to personal taste. I have no problems paying more for a business class fare because it's the whole experience that I enjoy. I value the lack of queues, the better personal space and legroom on the flight, the ability to actually sleep properly, be fed well and treated well. I also suffer little jetlag when I fly business/first class because I've managed to get good quality sleep on those long-haul flights. Some people just want to get from A to B at minimal cost. The same could be said for cars. I don't see the value in getting expensive cars whereas some people do. Same goes for food. Why do some people pay $50 for a meal when you can get a meal for $10? It fills your stomach just the same. It's your money, so you can spend it on whatever and however you like. Life is too short. You've got to do what makes you happy. Simple as that.

 

[Awesom Andy]

For me, if I fly long-haul, I would definitely choose at least Y+. (I'm not tall, even by Asian standards). Rather than spending a day to recover from a long-haul flight, I'm operational as soon as I land. With some schedules, I would also consider dropping a night or 2 at the destination with minimal impact to the journey, knowing that I would indeed be operational when I arrive. This results in some cost savings from other areas so the overall increase of costs is minimised.

Having said that though, most of my flights are short-ish (longest is SIN-SYD) so choosing a good Y seat is usually adequate in those cases.

 

[flyman]

Flying J long haul is cheaper than divorce.

amen to that!
i recently sent my wife and daughter long haul to UK on economy - my wife grumbles about it but then I told her to and spend 2000 GBP on some clothes/cosmetics instead - win win for everyone - divorce averted

flyman, if you are serious about wanting feedback, then it is not a good idea of potentially berate those whom you are appealing to by calling them misguided!.

did not mean to be insulting, just throwing out the options I'd considered but fully appreciate and agree that everyone has their own priorities and should do what they are comfortable/happy with

for me persoinally, I don't have any problem (or not much anyway) sleeping in Y or just zoning out by reading a book / listening to a podcast to kill the time, and the seats are bearable for me due to shorter height

 

[Misha]

Hi Flyman,

You do raise an interesting question and it is great to see some of the responses. I was somewhat hesitant to join (and stay in) this forum as I thought perhaps all members were multi-billionaires who only flew in F and would look at me as pond scum. That is certainly not the case, I am please to report.

Flying in J certainly is much nicer than flying in Y, and were the prices the same, no doubt we all (you included) would choose it everytime.

People here have provided some great insight into other factors, such as SC accumulation, Lounge access, etc though I wil try to convey something else.

Mental Health

I am by no means a wealthy man (in the financial sense). I am your average 32 year old (for a few more days anyway) guy, who travels a little for work, and a little for pleasure. My work flights are all in Y as company policy, and I wouldn't change that. Since most of my work flights are to destinations one or two hours of MEL there is no need to pay $1,000 for a ticket when I can get it for $200. May not be the shangri-la, but it is fine for such a short time.

Personal flying, I have the same policy - short haul is usually fine in Y. That could be different if I am doing a short haul after a long haul, e.g. an hour-long flight after 25 hours flying from Europe to Australia.

I do however (as a rule of thumb) have a limit of about 8 hours where I really do need (though don't always get) to have a J seat (or often PE - even though it's not as good, I convince myself it is). I am 180cms tall which is no giant, but some Y seats (on long haul) really can squish you in. Not being the world's richest man, sometimes I have to fly in Y. It is hard, and you don't sleep, you stare at a screen looking at "time to destination" that doesn't seem to have changed (even after a nap you swear was 3 hours long but in reality was more like 15 minutes). If you can get a J seat that reclines sufficiently (or better turns into a bed) then hey - guess what - there's one way to avoid a total mental breakdown.

I am heading off for a very quick trip to Asia in a couple of months. I am flying to BKK in Y, and I am fearing it. It was a reward seat that cost me literally nothing. I will then have a large number of hours in BKK before flying to another Asian city. Therefore my regional flight (which I paid for) is in J - this will ensure I don't arrive as the Hulk. After 3 days at my destination, I fly straight back to MEL. I arrive very early, will go home to change and head straight to work. Yes, I bought a J ticket for the return flight, as it will save my sanity, and any potential murder of my work colleagues that day. :mrgreen:

Also, sometimes you see specials advertised (I think of the recent Malaysian Europe sale) where business tickets are on par with economy: perhaps one or two hundred dollars difference. I would not believe you if you said you would save that $200 and stick with Y. If someone is travelling on a holiday for pleasure (let's ignore those that fly straight home for family emergencies) then they obviously have paid out a couple (or few) thousand dollars for the privilege, so a couple hundred more is not that much of a stretch.

I don't go to football games *gag*, I don't go clubbing any more with 15 friends, drinking 20 shots at $12 a pop. I also don't have a fancy schmancy car, or state of the art NASA type computers. I actvely use my money for travel as it is something I like to do: therefore I spend it guilt-free on J tickets sometimes. Money matters are real and yes, sometimes I have to go in Y but pray for the day when I can go again in the pointy end.

Have you flown in J many times, on different carriers? It really does make such a difference (more so internationally)... the fact that after say, Aus to Europe you get out feeling either half-dead versus being ready to tackle the sights is worth an amount that many would consider infinite

Look around for specials (this forum is a great place to do it!) and try out J long-haul... I won't even suggest F, as there are those of us that just won't get there!

Cheers,

Misha

 

[Archphoto]

As others have said, it all depends upon each individual situation.

Over the past 8 years I've spent umpteen days and nights flying internationally for business, and all in Y. The clients refused to pay the extra for me to fly J, and when you hit the ground running, the lack of a good nights rest, starts to hit you a lot faster than you think.

If I travel long haul for pleasure, I try my hardest to upgrade using my FF points - the extra comforts, whilst small, *do* make a huge difference at the other end.

If I could afford to fly business class every time I fly long haul, I'd be doing it - no questions asked. Spending hours, days and weeks on end flying in cramped conditions is exhausting and when you do get home, I have spent a couple of days getting over it.

J domestically? Forget it! A waste of time and money for me - in fact I've actually booked award flights from SYD long haul J and paid for the domestic portion as a Y fare. Using points for 2 hour flight seems wasteful and pointless to me.

I know of other photographers who work in similar circumstances, and their contracts state that *any* international flights will be J class.

I fully understand why: flying ADL-MEL-AKL-LAX-DFW-IND, and having to start work the next day at 6am isn't pretty. If I'd had the chance to get some decent sleep on the flight (J - Skybed), getting over the jetlag would have been a hell of a lot easier.

Hitting the wall at 3pm every day for 3 days gets to be a bit much, especially when you can't end your day until 10:30PM/11:00PM after such an early start.

 

[Mal]

I can't justify flying J all of the time. It doesn't make financial sense to me, and I travel ok in Economy (although very frazzled at the end!)

I do travel in a mixture of classes though. First, Business, Premium Economy and Economy. It all depends on the difference in price between the various classes, whether I'm busy trying to retain my Platinum status and a few other factors.

If a higher class of travel is an "acceptable" amount over Economy - then in most cases I will buy it. (For example, in the U.S - on some routes you can find First fares for only $100-$300 more than Economy; In Asia - it is common to find cheap Business compared to Economy and even ex-Australia it can sometimes be possible to find Premium Economy at good prices compared to the cost of Economy)

Occasionally, I'll fly a higher class to "try it out" or as a special treat. But I don't tend to pay ridiculous amounts for this.

Another time when flying a higher class can be "cheap" (compared to Economy) is during peak travel periods (eg over Christmas and during school holidays etc). For example, an Economy fare to LAX might be $2000 during school holidays, but a Premium Economy sale might be on at the same time offering $3000 fares.

It's all relative.

 

[flyman]

Hi Flyman,
Have you flown in J many times, on different carriers? It really does make such a difference (more so internationally)... the fact that after say, Aus to Europe you get out feeling either half-dead versus being ready to tackle the sights is worth an amount that many would consider infinite

Misha

I have flown long haul J on 3 occasions for work (qantas, British Airways, Korean air) and did enjoy it. The best argument for me would be feeling fresher at the other end but personally I did not get a lot more sleep in J than I do on Y. I have chronic insomnia anyway so I did not sleep brilliantly in J even though i was lying flat and find it equally easy or hard to sleep in Y.
I can afford long haul J now but as I grew up relatively poor, it feels like an overindulgence for the price so I would have a level of guilt because I know that if i flew Y to UK, there would be enough money saved for me to pay for my wife parents (who are not wealthy) to fly to and from the UK for them to visit their grandkids in Oz at my expense. If I had to fly very frequently then my atitude may be different but as i might do long haul for pleasure only once or twice a year I can deal with it. I also think that once I start paying out for J, then I would have to do it forever and also it might actually get expensive enough to make me think twice f I was paying for J for myself, wife and 2 kids twice a year. I would hate to get the wife and kids used to J as there would be no turning back afterwards

flyman, if you are serious about wanting feedback, then it is not a good idea of potentially berate those whom you are appealing to by calling them misguided!.

did not mean to be insulting, just throwing out the options I'd considered but fully appreciate and agree that everyone has their own priorities and should do what they are comfortable/happy with

for me persoinally, I don't have any problem (or not much anyway) sleeping in Y or just zoning out by reading a book / listening to a podcast to kill the time, and the seats are bearable for me due to shorter height

 

[Misha]

I have flown long haul J on 3 occasions for work... and did enjoy it... I did not get a lot more sleep in J than I do on Y. I have chronic insomnia anyway...

:shock::shock::shock:

I think we have found out why it isn't such a big deal to you then! I on the other hand enjoy a nice 8 hours a night so J gives me my requirements. For you: short and and awake*: save your $$ and go shopping once you land

I agree with your orther comments though, it is certainly a case of 'once you go J...'

* I have decided you should change your handle to this! :mrgreen: At least use it if you ever need to join a personal ad: I'll be Loud & Lazy