Flight changes; unsure how to proceed

[Zephyrana]

I spoke to the FF person who sorted out the points and status credits, and then passed me on to a Customer Care person about a possible refund for the fare difference. The Customer Care person instructed me to fill in the web form and said it will take 7-10 business days for a reply, so I shall see what that brings.

Thank you all for your help!

 

[muppet]

I do agree that this is ridiculous that an F customer should have to deal with this nonsense, however every time we see a thread like this the pax just seemed to take whatever QF gave them on the day.

PAX need to be more assertive at the airport and offer options.

For example, if it was me, I would have said put me on an AA codeshare to LAX so I can stay in F to MEL. (Yes I know AA J isn't as spacious as QF J - but I'd prefer a downgrade to AA J transcontinental to a QF F downgrade transpacific!)

As an aside: I bet QF enjoyed the 50,000 points or whatever they took from the J pax that took the OP's F seat.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I do agree that this is ridiculous that an F customer should have to deal with this nonsense, however every time we see a thread like this the pax just seemed to take whatever QF gave them on the day.

PAX need to be more assertive at the airport and offer options.

For example, if it was me, I would have said put me on an AA codeshare to LAX so I can stay in F to MEL. (Yes I know AA J isn't as spacious as QF J - but I'd prefer a downgrade to AA J transcontinental to a QF F downgrade transpacific!)

As an aside: I bet QF enjoyed the 50,000 points or whatever they took from the J pax that took the OP's F seat.

I agree being assertive helps, which is why I managed to retain my F seats by getting them to route me via DFW. I also had plenty of time to sort it out. The problem is the notification system. The OP arrives at the airport to checkin and finds out about the delay for the first time and has a non QF person to deal with who has no interest in doing anything. Qantas needs to be more proactive at trying to sort these things out for their F passengers. I have been hanging around in Singapore air, Ethihad and Emirates forums of late and I am not sure that service on the ground is any better on anyone else.....

 

[Zephyrana]

PAX need to be more assertive at the airport and offer options.

For example, if it was me, I would have said put me on an AA codeshare to LAX so I can stay in F to MEL. (Yes I know AA J isn't as spacious as QF J - but I'd prefer a downgrade to AA J transcontinental to a QF F downgrade transpacific!)

me: "I would prefer to fly First for the long leg."
two blank-faced men in British Airways uniforms: essentially - sucks to be you
me: "What are my options here?"
2B-FMiBAU: "You can try again tomorrow."
me: "Can I speak to someone who can help me sort it out?"
2B-FMiBAU: "No."

It's all a learning experience. Maybe next time I will know enough to negotiate a more favourable outcome, but I got home ok and I'm sure the people in Economy would have little sympathy for me bleating about being forced to fly Business. I'm pleased the status credits/points issue has been resolved in my favour.

 

[Nizar]

Maybe next time I will know enough to negotiate a more favourable outcome, but I got home ok and I'm sure the people in Economy would have little sympathy for me bleating about being forced to fly Business.

That is beyond the point though. Those sitting in Economy didn't pay what you paid.

 

[Flying mermaid]

me: "I would prefer to fly First for the long leg."
two blank-faced men in British Airways uniforms: essentially - sucks to be you
me: "What are my options here?"
2B-FMiBAU: "You can try again tomorrow."
me: "Can I speak to someone who can help me sort it out?"
2B-FMiBAU: "No."

It's all a learning experience. Maybe next time I will know enough to negotiate a more favourable outcome, but I got home ok and I'm sure the people in Economy would have little sympathy for me bleating about being forced to fly Business. I'm pleased the status credits/points issue has been resolved in my favour.

I must be getting mean in my old age but I would be seriously annoyed at flying J when I paid for F. Stuff what people think - they haven't paid what you did! I don't feel you did anything wrong - it sounds like it was a situation that was impossible to sort out once you got to the airport. However do make it clear to Qantas that they should be more proactive at sorting it out for you, particularly where you have booked at Qantas.com and saved them money on TA commissions!

Also perhaps a quick call to Qantas in Sydney might help. I just got my phone bill for sorting out my little fracas and it was $134 - money well spent in my opinion ( and don't anyone tell me about nasty things like Skype - I am still learning to cope with a mobile!)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I spoke to the FF person who sorted out the points and status credits, and then passed me on to a Customer Care person about a possible refund for the fare difference. The Customer Care person instructed me to fill in the web form and said it will take 7-10 business days for a reply, so I shall see what that brings.

Thank you all for your help!

The main issue is going to be the value of your refund. QF will probably estimate it at around $940 according to their refund table. However - the refund table is not part of the terms and conditions for you, the passenger, when you buy your ticket. So if you aren't happy with the level of refund, you can probably take it further.

Here is where it can get tricky. If the delay was outside QF's control, you might be deemed to have chosen to fly the new flights and accept a seat in business class. (Although you didn't accept the fare basis of that seat.)

If the flight delay was inside QF's control, I think you would be entitled to the fare difference between First saver and business saver... which could be a lot more than $940. (I'm not actually sure.)

Telling passengers a flight is delayed due to the late inbound... so many times airlines assume passengers will think this is automatically outside the airline's control. When in fact what you really need to know is the real reason why the flight was late into JFK.

It's a little unusual for check-in staff not to be proactive when it comes to IRROPS - but in the USA it is often the case by phoning, speaking to a gate agent, or to a lounge agent, that you can pretty much get the full range of options, and can choose what you want. Those three avenues have huge discretion in the USA. Check-in's not normally the place to be doing that.

Airline Consumer Advocate? We've seen at least two or three examples where the ACA is unable to assist in cases of downgrades and downgrade compensation. This is a matter really for consumer affairs in your local state.

Qantas has been asked (here on AFF) to give an outline on refunds are calculated in these cases, but have so far been unwilling to provide any information

 

[Zephyrana]

I was quite snippy in the survey.

I was fuming in the lounge deciding how to berate some poor call centre sod, and bemoaning the loss of my little first class pod-home, but it's hard to sustain that sort of thing when safely home.

 

[Flying mermaid]

I was quite snippy in the survey.

I was fuming in the lounge deciding how to berate some poor call centre sod, and bemoaning the loss of my little first class pod-home, but it's hard to sustain that sort of thing when safely home.

I know what you mean . This time though it took a bunch of flowers to calm me down.

 

[Mattg]

Please do let us know what they offer you by way of a refund.

And don't accept an amount you are unhappy with (which may well be what you are offered, by the sound of things).

 

[eastwest101]

Please do let us know what they offer you by way of a refund.

And don't accept an amount you are unhappy with (which may well be what you are offered, by the sound of things).

By way of reference - I just had a look at one-way fares for 8th July on QF18 to LAX and then QF94 to MEL (one-way fares):

First Class Flexible = US$13568 vs Business Class Flexible = US$9733
First Class Saver = US$10318 vs Business Class Saver = US$7458

Personally I would be looking for a four digit fare difference, not a three digit number that QF may try to offer you.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

By way of reference - I just had a look at one-way fares for 8th July on QF18 to LAX and then QF94 to MEL (one-way fares):

First Class Flexible = US$13568 vs Business Class Flexible = US$9733
First Class Saver = US$10318 vs Business Class Saver = US$7458

Personally I would be looking for a four digit fare difference, not a three digit number that QF may try to offer you.

Again - I think a lot depends on the reason for the delay. If it was ATC, or weather, and the passenger elects to travel on the offered flight, that may affect the amount that can be asked for.

 

[Alanslegal]

I looked at my boarding passes, and protested I didn't want to go through Sydney and I preferred to fly first class. The check-in person called over his senior, who wore a BA uniform. I want to be fair to Mr BA because it can't be easy to deal with disappointed customers, so I will try to leave out the more inflammatory sorts of adjectives. He blankly told me there was no alternative except to come back in 24 hours for the next day's versions of my original flights. (I did consider this, but 24 hours in an airport hotel isn't very appealing and there was no guarantee I would get seats on those flights anyway.) At no time was I asked what would suit me, or offered alternatives, or offered help finding other alternatives. I was told the check-in staff can't process or answer any questions about refunds. Mr BA, frankly, sneered at me and turned away.

I spoke to the FF person who sorted out the points and status credits, and then passed me on to a Customer Care person about a possible refund for the fare difference. The Customer Care person instructed me to fill in the web form and said it will take 7-10 business days for a reply, so I shall see what that brings.

Thank you all for your help!

Firstly I would be pushing much harder than you have. A refund of $x amount that you have no control of, is absolutely bullocks. If I paid for F, I am expecting F - and Qantas should be doing whatever they can, to get you onto F. If Qantas can't get me onto F, not only do I expect the refund in fare difference, I want something on top of that as an apology for the coughpy service that I received, for the coughpy handling of my situation and just to make me feel better.

First Class travel is suppose to be the most relaxing way of public transportation, and the experience from start to finish should be flawless. Right now, you should be sitting back and reflecting on your excellent F flights rather than having to come onto a public forum and needing help as a F passenger, to resolve an issue that Qantas could have pro-actively fixed anyway and then go above and beyond to repair any goodwill they have lost.

Qantas has totally stuffed up again, big time.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

me: "I would prefer to fly First for the long leg." two blank-faced men in British Airways uniforms: essentially - sucks to be you
me: "What are my options here?"
2B-FMiBAU: "You can try again tomorrow."
me: "Can I speak to someone who can help me sort it out?"
2B-FMiBAU: "No."

I think we need a sticky in the form of a running sheet on what to do in the event of an involuntary downgrade ie what would Arnie (Schwarzenegger) do?

What's with the BA guy's comment "you can try again tomorrow?" It wasn't even an offer to rebook you F tomorrow, merely a handball to more blank faced colleagues on the next shift which he won't be on resulting another trans-Pac boarding pass in J.

It's all a learning experience. Maybe next time I will know enough to negotiate a more favourable outcome, but I got home ok and I'm sure the people in Economy would have little sympathy for me bleating about being forced to fly Business. I'm pleased the status credits/points issue has been resolved in my favour.

It may well be a learning experience for next time however I really hope you ask for and receive proper compensation for this time. Econony pax paid for an economy airfare and travelled in that same class so are not out of pocket.

 

[BD1959]

If this was me, I'd probably be asking 3 key questions, then - depending on the response from QF - formulating my claim.

1. Why was I not informed prior to arrival at JFK that the departure was likely to be delayed and that subsequently I would not be traveling in my booked class?

2. Why was QF's representative not empowered to provide suitable alternatives on either QF or partner airlines either on the day or provide information as to when they *would* be available - including the offer of accommodation until such time as they were available?

3. Why am I now having to chase this up to get this issue resolved?

In doing this, it not only takes the emotion out of both the OPs response and the QF reps attitude (let's stop referring to them as a BA employee .... they are there to represent QF), it also starts to lay the groundwork to any future compensation claim.

1. Even on the SYD-MEL Y run, when at peak flights are running every 15mins, I get notification of a change to flight details, a contact phone number to call. Is there such a thing as a First Host at JFK? They should have been on the phone immediately, if so - and QF should have been on the front foot if not. In this day-and-age of instant communications, waiting until the OP is at the airport is simply not good enough, regardless of class of travel. The fact that the OP wasn't even notified but had to read the information from the BPs is very, very poor customer service from QF (I don't care who QF have decided is acting on their behalf, my ticket is with QF and the buck stops with them). Previously, QF have been *exceedingly* proactive for me when an international flight has been impacted - it's that previous care which keeps me considering QF for future bookings.

2. Why wasn't a re-route on F even considered by QF? Either by DFW on AA and QF metal - or even the long-way around via DXB on EK and QF? Forget the fact that they *may* have been sold-out, QF's Rep didn't even entertain the notion of doing one iota of work to provide information as to what had and had not been done to help get the passenger home via alternative means; including alternative accommodation options. If this was me, I'd be stood at the check-in desk, on the phone to QF in Sydney, getting my options understood before I accepted *any* possibilities. Simply not good enough.

3. The fact that no-one contacted the OP during the flights to take ownership for triggering follow-up; nor on arrival back in Oz - again, simply not good enough for an airline which charges a premium and likes to position itself above the lesser-likes of the aviation business.

Will follow the rest of this with interest.

Regards,

BD

 

[eastwest101]

Yes as others say, quite a bit of detective work required for the OP to figure out why QF18 coming into JFK from LAX was late, and tracking that aircraft further back to figure out why it was late. Correct me if I am wrong but QF18 JFK-LAX is a B747-400ER without F class cabin as the OP says, therefore was always going to be in J class seat for that leg. As for the LAX-Australia part, was the OP was removed from their original F class booking QF11 LAX-MEL and put into the J cabin of QF12 LAX-SYD (then presumably a domestic SYD-MEL flight - if so which cabin)?

From the Qantas Source (note the dates are presumably Australian times and dates).

QANTAS A380 VH-OQI Los Angeles Technical Issue.

June 4, 2015

QANTAS A380 VH-OQI operated QF11 Sydney – Los Angeles today, however the return QF12 has been delayed overnight due to a technical issue. This will cause the QF7/QF8 Sydney – Dallas-Fort Worth rotation of 6th June to be delayed overnight.


QANTAS B747-400ER VH-OEF Operates QF93/QF94.

June 5, 2015

QANTAS Boeing 747-438ER VH-OEF operated the QF93/QF94 Melbourne – Los Angeles rotation today in place of the usual A380.



QANTAS A380 VH-OQK Los Angeles Flight Switch.

June 5, 2015

QANTAS A380 VH-OQK operated QF11 Sydney – Los Angeles today then turned around to operate yesterday’s delayed QF12 Los Angeles – Sydney as QF12D.


So we can see a lot of aircraft out of position, delayed and A380 services being morphed into B747 services. Its just a suspicion, that with all of this happening, QF ran out of available F class seats and decided that the OP was the F pax who would be downgraded to J class. None of this should have been a surprise to QF operations and pro-active steps should have been taking place at all ports involved (MEL,SYD,LAX and JFK) to at least warn QF pax about the upcoming delays.

None of this excuses the poor information given, lack of notice, lack of other pro-active reroute options given (such as flying AA to LAX or even DFW to connect to a QF service with F class cabin), very slack follow up in Australia.

May also be worth re-checking with the OP - but if the flights were originally booked on the QF web site as JFK-LAX-MEL as a one-way ticket then presumably the tickets were paid for in US$ and US consumer law applies?

Upon re-reading of the OPs posts there is an implication that the counter staff in JFK didn't/couldn't say if seats on same flights 24hours later were or were not available, and if any accommodation for the delay was offered. One day they will do this to a consumer lawyer with lots of time on their hands and they will be made an example out of.

I also second RooFlyer and MEL_Traveler advice.

 

[eastwest101]

I think we need a sticky in the form of a running sheet on what to do in the event of an involuntary downgrade ie what would Arnie (Schwarzenegger) do?

That's an excellent idea - especially with the QF long range fleet stretched to the limit and aircraft subs and delays.

What's with the BA guy's comment "you can try again tomorrow?" It wasn't even an offer to rebook you F tomorrow, merely a handball to more blank faced colleagues on the next shift ....

That's where some people would have lost the plot, we need all this documented so staff at some of the outer reaches of the QF network can be made accountable, and if they can't then we will hold QF accountable for that.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

May also be worth re-checking with the OP - but if the flights were originally booked on the QF web site as JFK-LAX-MEL as a one-way ticket then presumably the tickets were paid for in US$ and US consumer law applies?

The main issue with US consumer law is that the passenger wasn't denied boarding. Denied boarding (and required written notification of rights) only applies if the passenger was entirely off-loaded from the flight... not if they elect to travel in a lower class.

With the fleet shortage... it can hardly be expected for the check-in staff to know all the available routings and combinations. Plus they (presumably) have others waiting in line to check in. We don't even know for example if the OP had time to catch a JFK-DFW flight to connect to F on the QF8. We don't know if there were other CX services that night (but that still would have left business class on the last 9 hours of the trip from HKG-MEL).

If the inbound delay was a result of a technical issue (ie within QF's control), I'd be requesting a full refund between first saver and business saver.

 

[BD1959]

With the fleet shortage... it can hardly be expected for the check-in staff to know all the available routings and combinations. Plus they (presumably) have others waiting in line to check in. We don't even know for example if the OP had time to catch a JFK-DFW flight to connect to F on the QF8. We don't know if there were other CX services that night (but that still would have left business class on the last 9 hours of the trip from HKG-MEL).

True, but wouldn't QF Operations have known from LAX wheels up, what the projected impact was and IIROPS should have been able to start planning immediately .... or do I live in some Sci-Fi world where the airlines are totally oblivious to network issues until they become apparent to the passenger and in the real world there's no predictive software, and no contingency planning?

Regards,

BD

 

[ozbeachbabe]

If this was me, I'd probably be asking 3 key questions, then - depending on the response from QF - formulating my claim.

1. Why was I not informed prior to arrival at JFK that the departure was likely to be delayed and that subsequently I would not be traveling in my booked class?

Not everyone has a local contact phone number for their overseas destination in the pnr. Similarly not everyone has global roaming on their Australian mobile phone. Not sure what the reservations call out procedure is for delays or class of service downgrades.

2. Why was QF's representative not empowered to provide suitable alternatives on either QF or partner airlines either on the day or provide information as to when they *would* be available - including the offer of accommodation until such time as they were available?

I think the QF representatives were empowered to provide suitable alternatives - they didn't exercise the option and just went for the easiest option by handing the pax J class boarding passes & sending him on his way. Who knows what they would have done if the pax refused to accept the downgrade to J and told the contract staff acting for QF to arrange alternate flights in F, being the original ticketed class that was paid for.

1. Even on the SYD-MEL Y run, when at peak flights are running every 15mins, I get notification of a change to flight details, a contact phone number to call. Is there such a thing as a First Host at JFK? They should have been on the phone immediately, if so - and QF should have been on the front foot if not. In this day-and-age of instant communications, waiting until the OP is at the airport is simply not good enough, regardless of class of travel.

Again, as above all the above will not be possible if the passenger is not contactable while overseas so unless the pax is monitoring FR24 or the QF website they won't know of the impending delay to the arrival flight and the knock on effect to their departing flight.