A politicians view of qantas ( he goes on a bit, but worth the read)

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oldenglishwhitemga

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Senator Xenophon Speech in Parliament - Hansard 23Aug11

I rise to speak tonight on an issue that is close to the hearts of many Australians, and that is the future of our national carrier, Qantas. At 90, Qantas is the world's oldest continuously running airline. It is an iconic Australian company. Its story is woven into the story of Australia and Australians have long taken pride in the service and safety standards provided by our national carrier. Who didn't feel a little proud when Dustin Hoffman uttered the immortal line in Rain Man, 'Qantas never crashed'?

While it is true that Qantas never crashes, the sad reality is that Qantas is being deliberately trashed by management in the pursuit of short-term profits and at the expense of its workers and passengers. For a long time, Qantas management has been pushing the line that Qantas international is losing money and that Jetstar is profitable. Tonight, it is imperative to expose those claims for the misinformation they are. The reality is that Qantas has long been used to subsidise Jetstar in order to make Jetstar look profitable and Qantas look like a burden. In a moment, I will provide detailed allegations of cost-shifting that I have sourced from within the Qantas Group, and when you know the facts you quickly see a pattern. When there is a cost to be paid, Qantas pays it, and when there is a profit to be made, Jetstar makes it.

But first we need to ask ourselves: why? Why would management want Qantas to look unprofitable? Why would they want to hide the cost of a competing brand within their group, namely Jetstar, in amongst the costs faced by Qantas?

To understand that, you need to go back to the days when Qantas was being privatised. When Qantas was privatised the Qantas Sale Act 1992 imposed a number of conditions, which in turn created a number of problems for any management group that wanted to flog off parts of the business. Basically, Qantas has to maintain its principal place of operations here in Australia, but that does not stop management selling any subsidiaries, which brings us to Jetstar.

Qantas has systematically built up the low-cost carrier at the expense of the parent company. I have been provided with a significant number of examples where costs which should have been billed back to Jetstar have in fact been paid for by Qantas. These are practices that I believe Qantas and Jetstar management need to explain. For example, when Jetstar took over the Cairns-Darwin-Singapore route, replacing Qantas flights, a deal was struck that required Qantas to provide Jetstar with $6 million a year in revenue. Why? Why would one part of the business give up a profitable route like that and then be asked to pay for the privilege? Then there are other subsidies when it comes to freight. On every sector Jetstar operates an A330, Qantas pays $6,200 to $6,400 for freight space regardless of actual uplift. When you do the calculations, this turns out to be a small fortune. Based on 82 departures a week, that is nearly half-a-million dollars a week or $25½ million a year.

Then there are the arrangements within the airport gates. In Melbourne, for example, my information from inside the Qantas group is that Jetstar does not pay for any gates, but instead Qantas domestic is charged for the gates. My question for Qantas management is simple: are these arrangements replicated right around Australia and why is Qantas paying Jetstar's bills? Why does Qantas lease five check-in counters at Sydney Terminal 2, only to let Jetstar use one for free? It has been reported to me that there are other areas where Jetstar's costs magically become Qantas's costs. For example, Jetstar does not have a treasury department and has only one person in government affairs. I am told Qantas's legal department also does free work for Jetstar.

Then there is the area of disruption handling where flights are cancelled and people need to be rebooked. Here, insiders tell me, Qantas handles all rebookings and the traffic is all one way. It is extremely rare for a Qantas passenger to be rebooked on a Jetstar flight, but Jetstar passengers are regularly rebooked onto Qantas flights. I am informed that Jetstar never pays Qantas for the cost of those rebooked passengers and yet Jetstar gets to keep the revenue from the original bookings. This, I am told, is worth millions of dollars every year. So Jetstar gets the profit while Qantas bears the costs of carriage. It has also been reported to me that when Qantas provides an aircraft to Jetstar to cover an unserviceable plane, Jetstar does not pay for the use of this plane.

Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar? We have been told by Qantas management that the changes that will effectively gut Qantas are necessary because Qantas international is losing money but, given the inside information I have just detailed, I would argue those claims need to be reassessed.

Indeed, given these extensive allegations of hidden costs, it would be foolish to take management's word that Qantas international is losing money. So why would Qantas want to make it look like Qantas international is losing money? Remember the failed 2007 private equity bid by the Allco Finance Group. It was rejected by shareholders, and thank goodness it was, for I am told that what we are seeing now is effectively a strategy of private equity sell-off by stealth.

Here is how it works. You have to keep Qantas flying to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act but that does not stop you from moving assets out of Qantas and putting them into an airline that you own but that is not controlled by the Qantas Sale Act. Then you work the figures to make it appear as though the international arm of Qantas is losing money. You use this to justify the slashing of jobs, maintenance standards and employment of foreign crews and, ultimately, the creation of an entirely new airlines to be based in Asia and which will not be called Qantas. The end result? Technically Qantas would still exist but it would end up a shell of its former self and the Qantas Group would end up with all these subsidiaries it can base overseas using poorly paid foreign crews with engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards. In time, if the Qantas Group wants to make a buck, they can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit. Qantas management could pay the National Boys Choir and the Australian Girls Choir to run to the desert and sing about still calling Australia home, but people would not buy it. It is not just about feeling good about our national carrier—in times of trouble our national carrier plays a key strategic role. In an international emergency, in a time of war, a national carrier is required to freight resources and people around the country and around the world. Qantas also operates Qantas Defence Services, which conducts work for the RAAF. If Qantas is allowed to wither, who will meet these strategic needs?

I pay tribute to the 35,000 employees of the Qantas Group. At the forefront of the fight against the strategy of Qantas management have been the Qantas pilots, to whom millions of Australians have literally entrusted their lives. The Australian and International Pilots Association sees Qantas management strategy as a race to the bottom when it comes to service and safety. On 8 November last year, QF32 experienced a serious malfunction with the explosion of an engine on an A380 aircraft. In the wrong hands, that plane could have crashed. But it did not, in large part because the Qantas flight crew had been trained to exemplary world-class standards and knew how to cope with such a terrifying reality. I am deeply concerned that what is being pursued may well cause training levels to fall and that as a result safety standards in the Qantas Group may fall as well. AIPA pilots and the licensed aircraft engineers are not fighting for themselves; they are fighting for the Australian public. That is why I am deeply concerned about any action Qantas management may be considering taking against pilots who speak out in the public interest.

A lot of claims have been made about the financial state of Qantas international but given the information I have presented tonight, which has come from within the Qantas Group, I believe these claims by management are crying out for further serious forensic investigation. Qantas should not be allowed to face death by a thousand cuts—job cuts, route cuts, quality cuts, engineering cuts, wage cuts. None of this is acceptable and it must all be resisted for the sake of the pilots, the crews, the passengers and ultimately the future of our national carrier.
 
i'd love to know where he gets his information from. not from the people locked out of qf i hope.
 
i'd love to know where he gets his information from. not from the people locked out of qf i hope.

Is that supposed to be some sort of rebuttal? Back to school for you, Pu Koh.

But on a more serious note - I questioned the logic of ripping apart Qantas International when it is the iconic brand that we all know and mostly love. That's when I thought it was a loss-leader. Now it seems that the creative accountants at Qantas have been working overtime, and whilst I doubt the international operations make a profit, they are probably doing less badly than Alan Joyce and the board would like you to believe.

At every turn this looks as devious as the waterfront dispute, only in this case the government is playing a straight bat rather than engaging in the illegal and deceptive behaviour themselves. At least that's some improvement ... but not according to the "crush the union bosses" acolytes.
 
I could not agree more with the Senator. I just wish that our other politicians were interested earlier and woke up to what Joyce was planning for so long.
It fits his plans perfectly to make the airline a 100% Jetstar operation.
While Qantas staff enjoy the perks of the job (ie. heavily discounted air fares and top pay) as against Jetstar crew on $10 an hour or so, there was no need to crash through with this heavy handed approach as Joyce has done.
I was supporting the Qantas position until yesterday when Joyce pulled the pin on the fleet. Now I am as mad as hell, along with tens of thousands of others. !!
A most irresponsible thing for Joyce to do.
This from a man who has had a pay rise of $2million plus bonuses and shares !!
He and his managers advising him need to front an inquiry to explain to all passengers and the Australian public why he should not be charged under the ASIC laws for gross mismanagement of a company.
As a long time FF and Club member who has been loyal to Qantas and Jetstar (where there is no Qantas available), I am bitterly disappointed at management's lack of loyalty to its customers.
The unions did not take such extreme measures as to the extent that this CEO has done.
Most Un Australia my Irish friend !!!!
Joyce must be sacked before he does any more damage.
 
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A lot of this was responded to by the Chairman and CEO in response to pre-sent in questions at the AGM, unfortunately not on the ASX.

In essence the response was: Qantas operates under a full user-pays system, and all subsidiaries strike commercial agreements with each other for services that they provide to each other. Qantas has provided the various unions with discussions with the auditor. Qantas also said it offered to at least one union the ability to do an independent audit on the condition that the results were made public if Qantas given the all clear - something that has not been taken up by the unions.
 
Let's believe everything politicians say.

Just because they hold the same view as you this time, it doesn't mean that they aren't engaging in "illegal and deceptive behavior".
 
like the unions if Xenophon disagrees with Qantas management he is, of course, free to start his own airline - or buy the brand himself. Become a major shareholder and pick your own board members Xeno.

But no, he rather longs for government intervention, more regulations and further market manipulation. Like a pocket totalitarian, with a charming persona of course.
 
I don't think either side is blameless, but if what the senator claims is true (and why should he be trying to mislead us?), I think Qantas management are engaging in dirty tricks. Unfortunately I think their strategy simply reflects the behavior of corporations the world over - whatever it takes to improve the bottom line. If their behavior happens to be ethical then it's just a happy coincidence; if it isn't no-one is going to lie awake worrying about it.
 
Let's believe everything politicians say.

Just because they hold the same view as you this time, it doesn't mean that they aren't engaging in "illegal and deceptive behavior".

Since you are in the know, Pu Koh, please enlighten us about this illegal and deceptive behaviour that the government has engaged in.
 
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The Qantas Group is a 'for profit' business. The Board and management are legally required to run it for the benefit of the shareholders. As it operates in a competitive environment, it does what any company is required to do, and that is to maximise revenue and minimise costs.

I'm unclear as to what the good Senator actually wants or expects to happen. Should the Qantas Group management and Board not conduct their business as they are legally required to do? Is that what he is suggesting?

If customers continue to prefer to book on airlines which offer the cheapest airfares, then the Qantas Group is simply exercising good business practices to follow the market. The idea that Qantas is the national flag carrier should have been ditched the moment the airline was privatised. If the Government wishes to run a nationalised full service "flag carrier" airline that will almost certainly lose hundreds of millions of dollars every year, then let it come out and say it. But don't carry on as if a privatised company should be required to behave in such a way.
 
A lot of this was responded to by the Chairman and CEO in response to pre-sent in questions at the AGM, unfortunately not on the ASX.

In essence the response was: Qantas operates under a full user-pays system, and all subsidiaries strike commercial agreements with each other for services that they provide to each other. Qantas has provided the various unions with discussions with the auditor. Qantas also said it offered to at least one union the ability to do an independent audit on the condition that the results were made public if Qantas given the all clear - something that has not been taken up by the unions.

The problem I have is with this statement. There are some well known businesses who have managed to strike very sweet deals which are still classed as commercial agreements. Eg large amounts of land rented to corporations for $1 per year... Another example, ACT land, when it's "sold" it's actually a lease with rental payments of 5c per year, which are never collected. So simply stating that they strike commercial agreements is hardly proof that QFi is not proping up the other QF businesses as they could easily be created as commercial agreements which QFi is making a loss on. Put enough zeros in front of a figure and it wouldn't stand out, and provided that figure is less than the actual cost of doing the work and you've got a commercial arrangement, which props up one area of a business, and yet is not easily found on the books. An example of this would be QFi charging JQ for $10,000 to do $20,000 worth of work, especially if that $20,000 was then hidden amoungst other figures, eg mix that $20,000 figure into say "contractor services" costs along with oither actual QFi costs and it would be quite difficult to find.
 
The national airline vs privatised thing has come up. It was also mentioned in another thread recently. Sure we can all agree it is a private company. The problem is someone needs to tell qantas that fact. Even qantas aircraft I look at says the spirit of Australia on the side. They still advertise on a nationalistic theme. If it truly isn't the national airline, then kill the advertising theme.

So simply stating that they strike commercial agreements is hardly proof that QFi is not proping up the other QF businesses as they could easily be created as commercial agreements which QFi is making a loss on. Put enough zeros in front of a figure and it wouldn't stand out, and provided that figure is less than the actual cost of doing the work and you've got a commercial arrangement, which props up one area of a business, and yet is not easily found on the books. An example of this would be QFi charging JQ for $10,000 to do $20,000 worth of work, especially if that $20,000 was then hidden amoungst other figures, eg mix that $20,000 figure into say "contractor services" costs along with oither actual QFi costs and it would be quite difficult to find.

A related issue is that qantas management could tell one part of the group you going to do X and they are going to pay you $Y.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.
 
The national airline vs privatised thing has come up. It was also mentioned in another thread recently. Sure we can all agree it is a private company. The problem is someone needs to tell qantas that fact. Even qantas aircraft I look at says the spirit of Australia on the side. They still advertise on a nationalistic theme. If it truly isn't the national airline, then kill the advertising theme.

While it is a private company, there aren'y many other companies that are bound by their own individual acts of parliament.
 
Should the Qantas Group management and Board not conduct their business as they are legally required to do? Is that what he is suggesting?

<snip>

But don't carry on as if a privatised company should be required to behave in such a way.

I haven't read the Qantas Sale Act, and don't intend to, so my response is likely to be half-informed ;)

In my view, the underlying tenor of Xenophon's speech was less about Qantas' rights to act like a publicly listed company, and more about their actions being designed to 'work around' the above piece of legislation, and not within - as they are legally required to do.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that there is any malfeasance (because I'm not privy to the detail of the actions of office bearers) - but would suggest that others are making this claim.
 
like the unions if Xenophon disagrees with Qantas management he is, of course, free to start his own airline - or buy the brand himself. Become a major shareholder and pick your own board members Xeno.

But no, he rather longs for government intervention, more regulations and further market manipulation. Like a pocket totalitarian, with a charming persona of course.

Your statement is just right wing nonsense. It was actually Qantas that orchestrated government intervention, the Senator actually commends the government for being at arms length. The government, taxpayers, customer and shareholders have every right to see that the company is transparent and honest with its finances and meeting its obligations under the act.
 
Isnt there also the issue of allocation of resources? Why is Jetstar getting all the new planes? This leaves QF with disenchanted customers with a diminished experience and the higher cost of running old planes Is the part of Joyce's strategy?
 
Isnt there also the issue of allocation of resources? Why is Jetstar getting all the new planes? This leaves QF with disenchanted customers with a diminished experience and the higher cost of running old planes Is the part of Joyce's strategy?
How about you actually go over and compare what planes QF and JQ got over the last year or so? I am sure the number was bandied around at the AGM but QF received 330's, 380's and 737's over the last 12 months along with the 320/330's that went to JQ...
 
How about you actually go over and compare what planes QF and JQ got over the last year or so? I am sure the number was bandied around at the AGM but QF received 330's, 380's and 737's over the last 12 months along with the 320/330's that went to JQ...

Sure where can we do that? I am sure QF has received new planes but in what numbers/ratio compared to JQ? THere has been debate on these pages of new 787's being diverted from QF to JQ, did I misunderstand?
My own experience, I have flown A LOT of domestic flights over 2 years and have not had a new QF plane EVER! If they are making money from the domestic division they should be reinvesting in it.
 
Senator Xenophon Speech in Parliament - Hansard 23Aug11


I love this bloke. He's like a little energiser bunny getting his finger prints on everything.....he's spread thinner than my kid's morning Vegemite on toast :lol:
 
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