Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airline?

[stomplad]

Just read an interesting article on Dubai that raises a lot of issues about human rights abuses, slavery, censorship and environmental vandalism. The dark side of Dubai - Johann Hari - Commentators - The Independent

I usually choose an airline for safety, value and comfort. It raises the question in my mind if one should also include the political and social values represented by that airline. Should we fly Airlines like Emirates knowing that they are owned by a regime or represent a country that exploits foreign workers and is guilty of above abuses.

I would be interested in your thoughts.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I have no interest in flying any of these ME airlines - Emirates / Qatar / Etihad / whoever.....

I don't choose not to fly them out of political protest.

However - the issues you raise are amongst the reasons I choose not to fly them.

More specifically - they form many of my reasons for not wanting to fly "there".

This is where, for example, VA lose me on their "partnership strategy". They seem to believe that Etihad are the solution to all of their problems - but in fact it just pushes me back to QF and Oneworld / BA.

 

[harvyk]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I guess it's a question only you can answer for yourself.
I do have to say it's probably not going to be the highest on my list of likes \ dislikes in regards to an airline.

But then again one person "unethical" is another persons "don't see the problem", so it needs to be a thing that you yourself must be comfortable with.

 

[drron]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

It probably should be factored in but where do you draw the line.
At present I would never fly Gulf-the problems there with the "Arab Spring" were and are horrendous.Doctors threatened with jail just for treating wounded demonstrators.
Then where do you put China?
Unfortunately most of us to tend to turn a blind eye.Myself included.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

See I won't fly China 'anything' either, or Garuda, or Aeroflop! (but perhaps these are for different reasons )

 

[harvyk]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

Then where do you put China?

Great people, interesting attractions, and a government which reminds you that it's ever so slightly always looking over your shoulders.

 

[casanovawa]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

Not really sure about airlines, but when i was in Zambia recently at Victoria Falls, although I am sure they aren't a bastion of probity and competent government either, i had no interest crossing over to the Zimbabwe side as i had read, and assumed, that a certain amount of the tourist dollars would be going back to fund Mugabe and his cronies...

 

[tuapekastar]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

While I am very mindful of, and in cases horrified by, things like human rights abuses that occur in many places, if I banned countries and carriers on the basis of their Governments doing the wrong thing, I probably wouldn't be able to even live here in Australia, let alone go anywhere else.

I used to harbour a desire to visit Dubai. Now, I would probably still go, but it is low on my list. Burma is definitely low because of the regime there, ditto Zimbabwe. But I cannot afford to be too precious, self-righteous or accusatory because most countries are guilty of doing 'bad' things. Just a case of how 'bad' they need to be before you exclude them from your plans. This goes for their airlines as well. And 'bad' is different things to different people.

 

[notzac]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

The article is spun a little bit, but it was a very interesting read all the same. It's a little bit scary -- but from a flying perspective, going through the Gulf to get to Europe is *awfully* convenient! I don't know whether I should feel guilty by association for flying through there (gotta be honest, I don't think I should), but it's a sobering thought all the same.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

The article is spun a little bit, but it was a very interesting read all the same. It's a little bit scary -- but from a flying perspective, going through the Gulf to get to Europe is *awfully* convenient! I don't know whether I should feel guilty by association for flying through there (gotta be honest, I don't think I should), but it's a sobering thought all the same.

I wouldn't feel guilty about it.

As I said - I don't avoid these airlines as a form of protest...... I simply avoid them as I have no desire to set foot in the sandbox!

On a more relevant note IMHO is the draconian laws that one could suffer the wrath of in these countries.

AFF is full of experienced individuals - but there are a hell of a lot of naive Aussies out there who have absolutely no idea of the trouble you can get in for normal "western" behaviour.

 

[simongr]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I wouldn't fly not an airline because of the actions of the state - the two are very separate in my eyes. If we took the next step we would not be selling resources to China and as a country we would be bankrupt.

What we can do is support countries with different regimes and help them to make change - and assume it will not be a quick change. We should also respect that other countries have different cultures and expectations (and no this doesn't mean I condone torture/oppression but having travelled to Saudi I do now take umbrage with those offended by the burkah).

 

[notzac]

What we can do is support countries with different regimes and help them to make change - and assume it will not be a quick change.

Very well put - though the report of the Australian families' treatment of their maid in the article turned my stomach. :-|

 

[The Rok]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I wouldn't fly not an airline because of the actions of the state - the two are very separate in my eyes. If we took the next step we would not be selling resources to China and as a country we would be bankrupt.

What we can do is support countries with different regimes and help them to make change - and assume it will not be a quick change. We should also respect that other countries have different cultures and expectations (and no this doesn't mean I condone torture/oppression but having travelled to Saudi I do now take umbrage with those offended by the burkah).

Well said. If we were really to be all high and mighty about the antics of the Arab nations then we would stop flying altogether, or even driving for that matter as the fuel in the plane, car, bus, ferry or whatever would more than likely of come from a nation with a sketchy government action of human rights.

Hell why not shut down Rio & BHP and stop sending all their resources to China. Nice way to put a couple of hundred thousand people out of work.

 

[maninblack]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I have no interest in flying any of these ME airlines - Emirates / Qatar / Etihad / whoever.....

I don't choose not to fly them out of political protest.

However - the issues you raise are amongst the reasons I choose not to fly them.

More specifically - they form many of my reasons for not wanting to fly "there".

This is where, for example, VA lose me on their "partnership strategy". They seem to believe that Etihad are the solution to all of their problems - but in fact it just pushes me back to QF and Oneworld / BA.

Virgin have SQ which saves the day for you.

 

[medhead]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

This is a moral question for all of us to answer. Same as my investment in one gaming company shares. I'm appalled by some of the stories that I've heard in relation to conditions for workers in some countries.

.
Hell why not shut down Rio & BHP and stop sending all their resources to China. Nice way to put a couple of hundred thousand people out of work.

I don't disagree with the sentiment. Just wanted to say mining doesn't employ that many people.

 

[casanovawa]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

Hmmm, just finished reading the article, I wouldn't be surpirsed if the authour had a little bit of an axe grind with the place, but seemingly not without at least some reasons... Its pity so many of these countries don't give a rat's about their own people as this abuse of maids and child jockeys etc goes on throughout the world with many of these Malaysian, Bangladeshi and Indian workers, probably Indonesians as well and i guess all their government's care about is few less mouths to feed and hard currency sent back to their families at home?

But doesn't sound like much of a place does it... I have never been particularly desperate to go and stay anywhere in that Gulf region, although i did touch down for a few hours in both directions in Doha flying Qatar Airways to Europe... But from the air it confirmed for me again that it didn't look like a place that would interest me very much and, having experienced some pretty hot temps in Egypt (but not 55C), again roasting doesn't do much for me even without threats of infections while trying to cool down etc (not that swimming on Kuta beach is so hygenic either)...

For those who would like to spend a night or two in Dubai, just to say you'd been there and see all the fuss, it almost sounds like you'd better go soon before the whole la la land goes belly up... It really was one of those places that could only be sustained by the inflated bubble mentality that existed pre-GFC... When everything had to be the biggest, tallest, largest over engineered building/attraction in the world (with a price tag to match) to attract people to the middle of a desert, its time was numbered unless the good times could roll on forever... The marketing budget for the place must have been huge, just with the amount of spam emails that were for ever going the rounds promoting all the mega hotels and projects and the amount of doco's that use to be on foxtel about the place, they certainly knew how to market/hype themselves as their existance probably depended on it...

I won't lose much sleep either for the gulf region when the oil does eventually run out, they don't have us over a barrel anymore and a few people in that region need to actually get a job, not that the transition from an oil based economy will be much fun...

 

[The Rok]

This is a moral question for all of us to answer. Same as my investment in one gaming company shares. I'm appalled by some of the stories that I've heard in relation to conditions for workers in some countries.



I don't disagree with the sentiment. Just wanted to say mining doesn't employ that many people.

I'd have to beg to differ. But let's leave that one there or this discussion could go on for hours. Frightening thought though, if we all put the moral stance of a government as the primary decider in our purchasing decisions.

We would all live in caves and eat freshly caught buffalo. Oops, that's cave men.

 

[drron]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I'd have to beg to differ. But let's leave that one there or this discussion could go on for hours. Frightening thought though, if we all put the moral stance of a government as the primary decider in our purchasing decisions.

We would all live in caves and eat freshly caught buffalo. Oops, that's cave men.

No we would be vegetarian cave men.Unless of course you feel plants have feelings then we would cease to exist.
Anyone want to save the planet?

 

[medhead]

I'd have to beg to differ. But let's leave that one there or this discussion could go on for hours. Frightening thought though, if we all put the moral stance of a government as the primary decider in our purchasing decisions.

We would all live in caves and eat freshly caught buffalo. Oops, that's cave men.

I have no idea what you differ about

I said it is a moral choice for us all to make. I did leave off the word, individually. Basically it is an individual choice for everyone to decide if they let employment conditions in certain countries determine their behaviour. In the same way that I have invested in gambling despite the moral questions involved and the views of SWMBO. I have made my own individual moral choice.

I certainly did not suggest that we all should put the moral stance of any government as our primary decider. Again that is a question for each individual. Some people do and some don't.

I am sorry but I cannot accept you wish to differ with this position, because it feels fundamentally illogical. Do you really feel that ethical questions are not a matter of individual choice, as I tried to express? (however poorly)

Or maybe you differ over employment in the mining industry. The ABS tells me the whole mining industry employed 135,000 in 2008/09. So BHP and Rio cannot account for hundreds of thousands of jobs.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[markis10]

Re: Should human rights, political & environmental issues factor in choosing an airli

I am thinking of banning any airline that provides beans for breakfast on an environmental basis!