Qatar denied extra capacity into Australia

[Human]

Just read the article in the Australian (linked below, but behind a paywall) that the government has denied Qatar's request for increased capacity into Australia. The article reports that the main reason for the denial was Qantas' opposition to the request on the basis that it gave Qatar an unfair advantage.

I don't really know what to make of this. On the one hand I'm no fan of Qantas, but on the other I'm no fan of the Qatari government either.

What seems clear is that the real loser is the consumer. With prices sky-high and frequent flyer availability at an all-time low, this decision won't help make things any better.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qatar-airways-denied-extra-capacity-into-australia-after-opposition-from-qantas/news-story/f68556b3eab4dfd04c68b6568b55f1e1

 

[levelnine]

Deeply disappointing decision. Extra Qatar capacity into Australia would have been a huge boon for customers.

The CL continues to pay for itself many times over.

 

[jase05]

Very disappointing decision but was always going to be the call that was made.
Let’s hope QR makes life more difficult for QF and it’s FF’s and can also look at alternative options.

 

[justinbrett]

It's all very well and easy to blame Qantas, but the truth is it protects the market as a whole, QR can still add flights to secondary ports just not the main gateways. I'd rather see more different airlines fly here, rather than just bulk up one dominating carrier.

Sure SQ is a dominating carrier, but at least Singapore is a mutual benefit for both countries.

Non paywalled article here: Government blocks Qatar Airways bid for more Australian flights

 

[Pushka]

QR could certainly fly more frequently into Adelaide without any impact on QFI departing here. I still have loyalty to them as they continued to fly into Adelaide all through Covid when other rats deserted. I just can't justify the cost anymore.

 

[levelnine]

It's all very well and easy to blame Qantas, but the truth is it protects the market as a whole, QR can still add flights to secondary ports just not the main gateways. I'd rather see more different airlines fly here, rather than just bulk up one dominating carrier.

What different airlines are there that do not yet fly to Australia? All the big hub-and-spoke airlines already fly into Australia: EK, EY, SQ, TG, NH, JL, MH, OZ, UL, CX, GA etc etc etc. TK is about to start. There's no airline that would want to fly to Australia that is being blocked by Qatar's presence.

It's clear that Qantas is the primary beneficiary of this block and the primary opponent to it. Only Qantas has sufficient political connections to move the needle.

You can't blame Qantas in the sense that if Qatar had greater access to the big ports they'd stand lose even more of their international premium traffic. They can't compete on destination list or product quality.

 

[justinbrett]

What different airlines are there that do not yet fly to Australia? All the big hub-and-spoke airlines already fly into Australia: EK, EY, SQ, TG, NH, JL, MH, OZ, UL, CX, GA etc etc etc. TK is about to start. There's no airline that would want to fly to Australia that is being blocked by Qatar's presence.

It's clear that Qantas is the primary beneficiary of this block and the primary opponent to it. Only Qantas has sufficient political connections to move the needle.

You can't blame Qantas in the sense that if Qatar had greater access to the big ports they'd stand lose even more of their international premium traffic. They can't compete on destination list or product quality.

Because QR is currently curtailed! My point exactly. If QR is given more rights, how many of those will pull out? It's also not just hub and spoke, now we are entering the age of direct Europe to Australia flights.

We don't know, but the government boffins know the pie is limited, and this is a state funded carrier that's happy to throw cash around - not out of the goodness of their hearts (and refer to @Pushka on pricing). Why not force QR into serving more secondary ports?

 

[levelnine]

If QR is given more rights, how many of those will pull out?

LOL so we are now protecting foreign airlines from competition from other foreign airlines?

How generous of Australia's Government to do such a service for the Governments of the UAE, Singapore, etc

It's also not just hub and spoke, now we are entering the age of direct Europe to Australia flights.

Exactly!!!

Now that Qantas will soon have the advantage of offering non-stop flights, there is even less reason to protect it from foreign competition.

Why not force QR into serving more secondary ports?

QR already serve more secondary ports than Qantas! Why not force Qantas to serve more secondary ports? They are the one getting massive taxpayer bail outs, after all.

 

[justinbrett]

LOL so we are now protecting foreign airlines from competition from other foreign airlines?

It's about protecting the market.

But another industry source said granting Qatar more landing rights would potentially destabilise the landscape as other airlines return to full capacity

QR already serve more secondary ports than Qantas!

Wow, I've never seen QR land at places like Wagga or Longreach. Did they get the stealth variant of their 777?

They are the one getting massive taxpayer bail outs, after all.

Oh let it go. You know very well that was a Covid thing.

QR gets continual oil payouts from its government, and that's not a covid thing.

 

[RooFlyer]

Because QR is currently curtailed! My point exactly. If QR is given more rights, how many of those will pull out? It's also not just hub and spoke, now we are entering the age of direct Europe to Australia flights.

We don't know, but the government boffins know the pie is limited, and this is a state funded carrier that's happy to throw cash around - not out of the goodness of their hearts (and refer to @Pushka on pricing). Why not force QR into serving more secondary ports?

Why not simply let the market (people) decide? If other foreign carriers pull out, its just a matter of Australians and its visitors making a decision based on their personal criteria. Why should the Australian government be protecting foreign airlines?

As a customer, I want the best experience for the cheapest, or at least relatively lowest, price. Its not as if QR is 'dirt cheap' - its usually well priced but the experience is usually exceptional for that price, which is the main attraction. What you are describing is protectionism, pure and simple EDIT - I see you are OK with this.

I reckon if the Government 'forced' them to service secondary airports - they would (to a point). I mean, they already sustain that arguably silly DOH-MEL-ADL flight.

PS- I see in the Oz report:

The Australian government’s decision to deny Qatar Airways further bilateral air rights would not stop the airline operating additional flights into major airports via “secondary” ports such as Canberra and Adelaide.

So you'll be happy.

And yes, Qantas too has received quite a bit of state funding recently but unlike QR, abandoned the country internationally during the pandemic, except when the government gave 'em even more.

 

[RooFlyer]

Hmmmm ... I wonder if VA might be able to wet-lease some very cheap QR birds and offer some additional international services, say to DOH?

 

[jase05]

Hmmmm ... I wonder if VA might be able to wet-lease some very cheap QR birds and offer some additional international services, say to DOH?

Yes, this would be absolutely brilliant

 

[levelnine]

It's about protecting the market.

But another industry source said granting Qatar more landing rights would potentially destabilise the landscape as other airlines return to full capacity

Indeed it is an anti-competitive decision. Glad we agree.

Love these unnamed 'industry sources' by the way. So authoritative.

Wow, I've never seen QR land at places like Wagga or Longreach. Did they get the stealth variant of their 777?

The same stealth variant that QF uses to serve ADL to SIN LOL.

Oh let it go. You know very well that was a Covid thing.

QR gets continual oil payouts from its government, and that's not a covid thing.

I love it. Oh let it go, it was only $2 billion in exchange for nothing. What's $2 billion between friends? At least the Qatari Government gets some global clout out of its investment. All Australia gets is gouged.

 

[justinbrett]

Why not simply let the market (people) decide? If other foreign carriers pull out, its just a matter of Australians and its visitors making a decision based on their personal criteria. Why should the Australian government be protecting foreign airlines?

As a customer, I want the best experience for the cheapest, or at least relatively lowest, price. Its not as if QR is 'dirt cheap' - its usually well priced but the experience is usually exceptional for that price, which is the main attraction. What you are describing is protectionism, pure and simple EDIT - I see you are OK with this.

I think there's a balance between protectionism and free trade - free trade where it's a benefit to both countries. Singapore is a good example where it's a mutual benefit. The UAE treaty probably wouldn't get signed today, but at the time both QF and VA were flying metal there, and more importantly, UAE allowed Australia to set up a military base there.

And yes, Qantas too has received quite a bit of state funding recently but unlike QR, abandoned the country internationally during the pandemic, except when the government gave 'em even more.

VA1 cancelled international flights the same time as QF (Qantas and Virgin Australia suspend remaining international flights). This gets largely into the covid discussion which is now banned on AFF.

Hmmmm ... I wonder if VA might be able to wet-lease some very cheap QR birds and offer some additional international services, say to DOH?

There's certainly an incentive to do so now - probably not if QR had unrestricted rights.

The same stealth variant that QF uses to serve ADL to SIN LOL.

No QF uses 737s between ADL and PER/SYD, then on to London.

love it. Oh let it go, it was only $2 billion in exchange for nothing. What's $2 billion between friends?

Actually the majority of that was for services provided. Do your research.

 

[levelnine]

No QF uses 737s between ADL and PER/SYD, then on to London.

You're tying yourself in knots trying to defend QF, as usual.

If you want Qatar to serve more regional ports, you're then in favour of allowing them to run domestic services in competition with QF & VA? Amazing, glad to see you are now pro competition LOL.

Actually the majority of that was for services provided. Do your research.

Wrong.

 

[OATEK]

I can't help but think QATAR shot themselves in the foot with not continuing OW arrangements and shifting to VA, and there is no doubt lingering tensions from the disastrous events affecting Australian women at DOHA (the report on which remains secret).

 

[justinbrett]

You're tying yourself in knots trying to defend QF, as usual.

If you want Qatar to serve more regional ports, you're then in favour of allowing them to run domestic services in competition with QF & VA? Amazing, glad to see you are now pro competition LOL.

No, that's how the mechanics work - they can fly to a gateway and then on to a secondary port, like they have done with CBR & ADL.

I don't subscribe to AFR. But the largest government money was through the International Freight Assistance Mechanism, which is pay for services. Another large chunk was waivers of government fees (eg ATC) for domestic services, which all domestic airlines benefited from.

Less than a billion went on Jobkeeper, which was used for the intended purpose.

 

[CaptJCool]

Who said fair competition was alive and well ?

Much more Duopoly powers than anything else which is the typical Aussie model

Coles Woolies and a “3rd position” filled by one or more players
Qantas virgin and the “3rd players”
ALP LNP and the “3rd players”
Unilever and Lever & Kitchen
Coca Cola and Pepsi

Pick any industry and it’s likely a Duopoly with Monopoly style powers

 

[Foreigner]

Qantas may see Qatar a threat to the QF-EK relationship.

 

[muppet]

I agree with this decision. Why hand over the premium ports to be milked by a foreign company? Short term, yes we get cheaper fares, longer term we lose local jobs and get higher fares once the locals are broke. Surely if we learned anything from 2020 it was the need to maintain local industries (not that QF helped much).

I agree open skies should only exist where its mutually beneficial like SIN and New Zealand.

QR can increase services to ADL, DRW, CBR, CNS, OOL etc. I also think the nonsense services like the DOH-MEL-ADL service that was essentially useless for ADL originating pax should not be allowed either - to get the additional services to the secondary ports they should have to fly direct to that port and then do their tag to the premium ports.