A320 German-wings accident in Southern France

[MEL_Traveller]

Ok, you're definitely trolling now right? Or at least have a chip on your shoulder about something.

Unfortunately Amaroo has a point.

When we hear of accidents in Africa, the Stans, India, or many parts of Asia there is a certain amount of resignation that something like that is not entirely unexpected.

People assume safety standards aren't as high in those places. People assume pilots aren't as good. People assume airline management isn't as good. People assume maintenance isn't as good.

A lot of people assume Air China should be questionable as a choice of carrier simply because it's Chinese. No need to look at the facts. No need to look at safety records. They just assume it's less safe.

And then there are some airlines which might not be so safe, but because we want to fly with them we don't want to look too deeply. We don't want others pointing out the obvious, because it might make us look silly in our desire to fly them.

 

[serfty]

Airlines to change their safety policies.
Airlines across the world to change safety policies - BBC News

Yes ... they must be seen to be doing something ...

 

[medhead]

If any of the speculation about this is correct it just highlights how much safety and protection we throw away when pandering to knee jerk security reaction from spooks who are unable to put risk into perspective.

 

[JMFK]

How sad.

I guess those coughpit doors are more secure than I thought. I always thought that if someone reeeeeally wanted to get in, they could break it down...using a trolley or something as a battering ram.

I can only imagine the poor captain banging hopelessly on the door knowing what is about to happen.

 

[dodgeyhack]

Given that this is a cadet pilot and a LCC we're talking about here let me throw out a crazy wild idea. Instead of wasting money on a third person, try paying your pilots a decent salary. While you're at it don't treat their training as a profit centre.

That's right - it's wise to remember that this isn't a bus - you're traveling in an environment that is hostile to human life. Pilots need to be well trained and well compensated.

 

[Mattg]

Must admit, I was thinking those at the front were in the know that something was very wrong but Im hoping the majority were clueless.

I know a 3rd person in the coughpit during a pilot break isn't the 100% answer but it might sway a pilot that was borderline about their actions.

Ultimately, this is so tragic and pointless.

The Germanwings cabin only has one class (no curtain/divider) and the front of the plane is visible from even the last row of the A320. (I sat there once on 4U.) As much as I would like to believe otherwise, I think those at the back of the plane would have most likely seen what was happening, unfortunately.

Indeed, this is tragic and pointless.

 

[defurax]

That's right - it's wise to remember that this isn't a bus - you're traveling in an environment that is hostile to human life. Pilots need to be well trained and well compensated.

We never heard of a well paid surgeon committing suicide... WTF?!?

 

[medhead]

We never heard of a well paid surgeon committing suicide... WTF?!?

As the French prosecutor has clearly articulated, if the speculation is correct, this guy didn't just commit suicide.

Not to mention if debt pressure, poor pay, negative feelings about the employer really is the issue this guy has killed himself, and 149 others, in a way that is highly damaging to the employer.

False to think suicide is the issue.

 

[dodgeyhack]

We never heard of a well paid surgeon committing suicide... WTF?!?

I've not heard of a surgeon taking out a bunch of patients and co-workers at the same time.
This guy was in a position where he had the care of 150 people under his sole control.
My argument is that he shouldn't have been in this position in the first place. Having an FA baby sit him while the captain goes to the loo isn't addressing the root cause of the issue.
Or maybe this is just one of those rare cases that's always going to happen every so often when you're travelling in that hostile environment. 100% safety is impossible. In an alternate scenario he could have turned off the engines - I'd like to see an FA restart them in time.

 

[mjgriffo]

In the context of JB747's comment in the ask-the-pilot thread - referring to this study:

http://eala.aero/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mildred-Trîgeler-EALA-prize.pdf

It's disappointing (but not unexpected) that all of this information is being 'leaked' out of the investigation so early in the piece.

 

[mannej]

In the context of JB747's comment in the ask-the-pilot thread - referring to this study:

http://eala.aero/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mildred-Trîgeler-EALA-prize.pdf

It's disappointing (but not unexpected) that all of this information is being 'leaked' out of the investigation so early in the piece.

Weren't the Malays criticized for the leaking of information following 370?

I think the same is happening here, and look at the conjecture it causes.

 

[Buzzard]

Amongst all this tragedy I would still fly with germanwings tomorrow.
I would do it to show my support of the airline and the employees.
They are also victims.

 

[medhead]

Amongst all this tragedy I would still fly with germanwings tomorrow.
I would do it to show my support of the airline and the employees.
They are also victims.

I would apply my Jetstar rule. Only fly them if they give free champagne.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I've not heard of a surgeon taking out a bunch of patients and co-workers at the same time.
This guy was in a position where he had the care of 150 people under his sole control.
My argument is that he shouldn't have been in this position in the first place. Having an FA baby sit him while the captain goes to the loo isn't addressing the root cause of the issue.
Or maybe this is just one of those rare cases that's always going to happen every so often when you're travelling in that hostile environment. 100% safety is impossible. In an alternate scenario he could have turned off the engines - I'd like to see an FA restart them in time.

It's not the point that an FA is going to restart the engines. But the FA can call for help, and open the door. Instantly. And the other pilot will come (well, that's the theory.) The FA may also act as a deterrent. I can't see a good argument against having two people in the coughpit at any time.

Root causes? Pilots do what they do because they love doing it. Some of them might not be suited to it. Some might not be very good at it. But they're doing it because they want to.

I don't know of many careers where you get to play with fun stuff like airplanes. I don't know of too many professional careers that don't start with uni debt, and long hours, and the pressure of learning to be in the real world. I don't know of too many professional careers that don't start with significantly lower salaries for juniors. That's what you put in the hard years of work for... to gain experience, get more responsibility and get paid more.

There is no excuse for a pilot to deliberately kill their passengers. There may be a strong argument to weed out the less-than-capable. And those not psychologically cut out for it. But I don't think we need to give them a debt-free, $250,000 salaried, A380 first officer role with three-night layovers in Acapulco the moment they step out of flying school just so their life isn't too 'stressful' for them.

If the stress is too much for you... leave. Or go crash your own cessna. Don't do it in a commercial airliner.

 

[samh004]

Imagine the result is this SF decided to fly into a school, hospital, city.

It's getting very obvious that things need to change!

In the same vein, a truck driver hauling fuel in a 34-wheeler could drive into a school with very similar damage. There are many possible scenarios for big loss of life, it's impossible to police them all.

 

[amaroo]

In the same vein, a truck driver hauling fuel in a 34-wheeler could drive into a school with very similar damage. There are many possible scenarios for big loss of life, it's impossible to police them all.

Indeed. The overnight reported changes in procedure and policy can be taken as proof that some in the avaition industry believe that things need/will be changed. IMO it's a pity some of these things weren't implemented after similar suicide/murder incidents.

 

[AVC]

Obviously the root cause is pilot mental health. However, it may not be detectable or apparent at a medical check (and how often are these carried out?)

IMO the best security feature is an armed air marshall on every aircraft. I'm not sure how many there are but you can be pretty sure that there are way less of them than there are planes in flight.
A bit like the original red light/speed camera theory (in NSW). The cameras used to cost big $$. The housings were relatively cheap. So they rotated the cameras around. You never knew where they were. Sometimes the boxes were empty.
Anyone could be the air marshall. They don't wear cop uniforms. It's essentially a cost saving exercise.
Obviously once an civilian-clothed person enters the flight deck it gives the game away as to who he is, but that's the way it goes.
A rogue pilot may not be concerned about cabin crew, but an officer with a sidearm is a different story. Combine that with a "hands off controls while one pilot on deck" rule and you may have a solution.

Oh yeah, air marshalls would have to be cheaper that a third pilot. Management love cheaper. And you get the bonus of extra security.
Could be a selling point. Airline X always has an air marshall on board. Fly with us for extra safety.
Problem is people love cheaper too.

 

[milehighclub]

An air marshal doesn't know how to fly a plane. There could be a million reasons why a pilot would have to touch the controls whilst the other one is out and a marshal would never be trained enough to understand the decision pilots take years to learn about. Again, tilt the aircraft down in one quick movement, throw the marshal off balance and the pilot can achieve his result.

And let's not rule out that a flight attendant could also be a bit rouge, and commit a similar crime. In fact any human in the flight deck can cause the aircraft to crash with enough will power. What is to stop an air marshal pulling the trigger at the flying pilot? There is always going to be a risk with any form of transport, or life in general.

This is certainly a very rare and tragic event but I don't think the industry needs to implement some knee jerk reaction policy.

 

[JohnPhelan]

I guess those coughpit doors are more secure than I thought. I always thought that if someone reeeeeally wanted to get in, they could break it down...using a trolley or something as a battering ram.

You would have been correct up until 9/11. After that, the doors were re-engineered to make the coughpit virtually impregnable. (Hence the override button so the pilot can even stop someone with the code from getting in).

 

[medhead]

.

I don't know of many careers where you get to play with fun stuff like airplanes. I don't know of too many professional careers that don't start with uni debt, and long hours, and the pressure of learning to be in the real world. I don't know of too many professional careers that don't start with significantly lower salaries for juniors. That's what you put in the hard years of work for... to gain experience, get more responsibility and get paid more.

There is no excuse for a pilot to deliberately kill their passengers. There may be a strong argument to weed out the less-than-capable. And those not psychologically cut out for it. But I don't think we need to give them a debt-free, $250,000 salaried, A380 first officer role with three-night layovers in Acapulco the moment they step out of flying school just so their life isn't too 'stressful' for them.

If the stress is too much for you... leave. Or go crash your own cessna. Don't do it in a commercial airliner.

No one said anything about a debt free $250000 a year starting salary. We're also not talking about a university here. It's in house company training that lumps people with, what, a $150000 debt and a starting salary in the ball park of a taxi driver, or any old graduate with significantly less debt.

rather than getting confused with debt free distraction. What I wrote was not treating training as a profit centre. If you need pilots so bad that you're doing in house training don't profit from them. That certainly is the same as debt free.