AA5342 Collides with Helicopter

[p--and--t]

Trump has already decided what the root cause was. Is there any need for further investigation?

[sarcasm]

 

[kookaburra75]

There will be a lot of the “frog in boiling water” about this. There are procedures at play here (and right across the USA) that are just plain dumb, and which are not seen anywhere else in the world. But, because they’ve gotten away with it for so long, they’ve come to be seen as safe, when they’re the exact opposite. I’m sure it’s been said at some point in the pilot thread, but I found US ATC and their procedures to be the worst that I ever had to deal with. Controllers that speak at a million miles per hour, use phrases that are non standard (even for them), get snarky if you have any issues with them (from asking for a “say again”, to being unable to comply) and who will respond with clearances that are nothing short of punishments.

While there's still a while to go in terms of the investigations and findings, I can't help but think that the mass sacking of air traffic controllers in 1981 has had some serious knock-on effects over the years, including doing it "their way".

 

[justinbrett]

Aviation safety has had a long held foundation of investigations focused on lessons not blame. At the end of the day blame is negative in nature, but great clickbait to the keyboard warriors.

True but once the investigation is complete the court cases will start.

Plenty of controllers have gone to jail.

 

[jb747]

American exceptionalism writ large...

Remember that it's not only the Americans who may be guilty of this. NIH is a world-wide issue.

 

[OATEK]

"An internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that killed all 64 people on board American Airlines Flight 5342 as well as the three in the helicopter found the workload on the controllers was unusually heavy and complex, with staffing a third below targeted staff levels, The New York Times reports."

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/jet-helicopter-involved-in-apparent-crash-near-washington-dc-airport/news-story/ef4de39f48878bd28604dcac2b4817b3

 

[Himeno]

And with Trump getting rid of anyone they claim is 'DEI', FAA staffing will get worse

 

[justinbrett]

And with Trump getting rid of anyone they claim is 'DEI', FAA staffing will get worse

The trouble is there is an element of truth in what he says, but it’s not the full story.

Main problem is there’s a controller shortage globally. Has been for decades, it’s a hard job to recruit to. Exactly the same situation here and in most countries.

The training pipeline is too narrow, as it’s resource intensive to train a controller. FAA does have DEI policies for recruitment, as does RAAF and Airservices. So there’s lots of white males getting rejected because there’s an affirmative action policy in place. That’s not to say those being hired don’t meet the standard, but the very fact those policies exist leaves it open to be questioned.

 

[Quickstatus]

There is also no FAA administrator at the moment.

There is an acting FAA administrator - someone who has been at the FAA for 20 years
Obviously the resignation of the previous FAA administrator had no direct cause and effect with this accident
One problem is the severe shortage of ATC. They also have a retirement age which is less than 60.

It's nice that the headlines (inc this thread title) are trying to blame the PSA flight when it was the army helo not meant to be there.

First rule of Crash investigation - to not find or apportion blame. Safety does not improve with a blame culture.
...
According to the current WhiteHouse, the FAA had a hiring policy which included :
Almost unbelievably, as a diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiative, the Biden FAA specifically recruited and hired individuals with “severe intellectual” disabilities, psychiatric issues, and complete paralysis over other individuals who sought to work for the FAA"

Though I cant imagine they would be hired as ATC...
...

5 elements are involved here: Humans, Machine, Environment, Policy and Governance, the inter-relationships between all the previous element. Interestingly the one element that often makes the biggest difference in Safety is Policy and Governance.

 

[RSD]

There will be a lot of the “frog in boiling water” about this. There are procedures at play here (and right across the USA) that are just plain dumb, and which are not seen anywhere else in the world. But, because they’ve gotten away with it for so long, they’ve come to be seen as safe, when they’re the exact opposite. I’m sure it’s been said at some point in the pilot thread, but I found US ATC and their procedures to be the worst that I ever had to deal with. Controllers that speak at a million miles per hour, use phrases that are non standard (even for them), get snarky if you have any issues with them (from asking for a “say again”, to being unable to comply) and who will respond with clearances that are nothing short of punishments.

Yep - they are a strange lot. I've seen things in other industries there that are plain dumb - but they do them because it is more convenient than avoiding doing what the rest of the world wouldn't do. There is a certain gung-ho culture present there to.

 

[RSD]

OK this is interesting - take a look at this video - and particularly pay attention to the bit about heights for the helicopter - and then look at the last minute of the video which shows that the
helicopter has popped up to 350 feet -

 

[justinbrett]

OK this is interesting - take a look at this video - and particularly pay attention to the bit about heights for the helicopter - and then look at the last minute of the video which shows that the
helicopter has popped up to 350 feet -

View attachment 429670

Yes that was reported yesterday. Not exactly a smoking gun but yet another hole in the cheese. I wouldn’t be relying on 150FT of vertical separation. The requirement to be visual with aircraft on final is the main thing.

 

[DC3]

“Just the facts, Ma'am.”

Too much conjecture here.

 

[DC3]

And with Trump getting rid of anyone they claim is 'DEI', FAA staffing will get worse

And, as reported by the ABC: Asked how he could conclude diversity had something to do with the crash, he said: "Because I have common sense."

Trump says air crash cause unknown, but he blames Democrats and diversity

Less than 15 hours after the Washington DC air crash that killed 67 people, Donald Trump places blame on past Democratic leaders and initiatives to boost diversity in aviation, without specific evidence.

www.abc.net.au

 

[RSD]

Yes that was reported yesterday. Not exactly a smoking gun but yet another hole in the cheese. I wouldn’t be relying on 150FT of vertical separation. The requirement to be visual with aircraft on final is the main thing.

I wasn't aware that it had been reported yesterday that the helicopter was above its required maximum height, but like you said - relying on 150ft / 45 metres of vertical separation underneath a jet that is descending on final into land is relying on too little - we've seen plenty of reports of RPT jets descending below minimums or below the glide slope on final - and clearly helicopters can pop up above their allowed height of 200 feet too - planning for just 45 metres of vertical separation if everyone is flying at their allocated height is beyond stupid.

 

[RooFlyer]

“Just the facts, Ma'am.”

Too much conjecture here.

Note to AFFers. No comment here until the final NTSB report is in (say, 2 years). Then the facts will be known.

 

[RSD]

At least the investigators should have a full set of black box info for their investigation, although I don't know whether army blackhawks have coughpit voice recorders etc.

 

[Quickstatus]

No comment here until the final NTSB report is in (say, 2 years).

They are saying (or at least it is reported as such) a prelim in 30 days.

 

[justinbrett]

At least the investigators should have a full set of black box info for their investigation, although I don't know whether army blackhawks have coughpit voice recorders etc.

I don't believe they have the Blackhawk's yet, even though I've seen some reporting that they have. Some confusion that they've found two black boxes, but actually they both belong to the CRJ - one is the CVR ad the other FDR. Neither likely to be much use tbh.

The Blackhawk has a single black box which has an integrated CVR & FDR. Not yet found from what I can see.

 

[oz_mark]

They are saying (or at least it is reported as such) a prelim in 30 days.

30 days is an ICAO requirement

 

[DC3]

Note to AFFers. No comment here until the final NTSB report is in (say, 2 years). Then the facts will be known.

Yes, and we AFFers have all of the answers. . Some more than others it seems. Just the facts, ma’am.