Abbott in Government

[JohnK]

You're quite greedy, and you've amply demonstrated that previously. Are you also against progressive taxation ?

So the resident AFF expert thinks I am too greedy?

I am against paying too much taxation because I manage to save what I earn and not squander it away like some.

I am not against taxation on income although tax rate could be a flat rate and lower than current tax rates but I am totally against taxation on savings including investments. It is money I do not want to share with anyone. That does not make me greedy.

Yet you seem quite prepared to leech off the money the Government provides.

I am very good at leeching off the government? What did I leech?

Oh and I am also totally against capital gains tax? It is totally unjustified that I pay a tax to the government for my hard earned work. Hopefully nothing serious comes up and I have to sell urgently otherwise if I ever sold then I will pretend to live in the place for 12 months and pay no capital gains tax.

I suppose you are going to say I am rorting the system?

 

[Pukka]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Common sense only in your own imagination.

You are, after all, the person who would refuse to earn more income because of the tax that must be paid. You're the one who thinks cutting welfare to the poor in society has no cost for law and order.

Not much sense from you at all.

I've never shied away from earning more money and paying more tax in fact I embrace it because I'm not a parasite.

Come to the dark side it's more fun than hugging trees

Anyway we can always build bigger prisons despite what you say crime is a choice not a necessity

 

[amaroo]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Mmmm

Sent from my table in Rockpool after a nice steak and a rather nice claret

Getting one last meal in before the move to Bridge Street?

 

[Pukka]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Getting one last meal in before the move to Bridge Street?

No I'm in Melbourne for the cup, great food off to that Italian you suggested tomorrow Il Baccaro?

 

[amaroo]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

No I'm in Melbourne for the cup, great food off to that Italian you suggested tomorrow Il Baccaro?

Nice one. Bet well and enjoy the evening tomorrow - should be quite lively:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

 

[drsmithy]

So the resident AFF expert thinks I am too greedy?

No, I said you'd demonstrated (and continue to demonstrate) greed.

I've never claimed to be an expert at anything under discussion.

I am not against taxation on income although tax rate could be a flat rate and lower than current tax rates but I am totally against taxation on savings including investments. It is money I do not want to share with anyone. That does not make me greedy.

Actually it does because you are advocating a system that delivers the greatest benefit to you at cost of others.

Flat income taxes are regressive, unfairly burden the poor, increase wealth inequality and decrease class mobility.

If you're so keen on flat taxes, how about we have a flat tax on wealth ?

I am very good at leeching off the government? What did I leech?

No, I said you were prepared to leech off Government.

Time for the new immigrants to keep the country going. I need to put my feet up and relax. I will spend all the money I have in a couple of years and then rely on the government to give me a pension for the rest of my life.

Oh and I am also totally against capital gains tax? It is totally unjustified that I pay a tax to the government for my hard earned work.

You generally don't do any work at all for capital gain. Housing over the last few decades being a quintessential example of unearned wealth.

That's why we have capital gains taxes. To capture the increases in wealth due to luck rather than productive enterprise.

Hopefully nothing serious comes up and I have to sell urgently otherwise if I ever sold then I will pretend to live in the place for 12 months and pay no capital gains tax.

I suppose you are going to say I am rorting the system?

Yes, if you "pretend to live" somewhere for twelve months in order to avoid capital gains you are absolutely rorting the system. Not to mention breaking the law.

Retaining an illiquid asset instead of trading it for a liquid one is a risk you are choosing to take.

 

[knasty]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

The accusation that people are just spending your money without paying anything them self is disgusting.

As for your suggestion, as has been established the top marginal tax rate has very little correlation to the effective tax rate people pay.

Would be interested in your views about Abbott reintroducing middle/upper income welfare.

That's not what I said. I was discussing drsmithy's comments regarding much higher tax rates in the 50s and 60s.

Personally I don't support the baby bonus, family tax benefit, housing grants, government funded parental leave, the list goes on. I believe Newstart should be higher but for a limited period of time. More money should be spent matching people on disability care with jobs they can do. We should have 1 federal system for health education transport etc removing federal/state duplication. There should be some level of tax relief/offset for super contributions available to everyone (say 15-20%). Combine this with lower tax rates across the board to encourage extra productivity.

How's that sound? BTW I am not in the top tax bracket and I don't belong to a political party. I shop at Aldi, live in the Western suburbs and drive a used car. The Aussie dream.... I just want my kids to work hard and achieve in life as I have tried to, and not be cut down for trying.

 

[JohnK]

No, I said you'd demonstrated (and continue to demonstrate) greed.

As per your definition.

I've never claimed to be an expert at anything under discussion.

You have disagreed with everything I said. Your view is not always right.

Actually it does because you are advocating a system that delivers the greatest benefit to you at cost of others.

Flat income taxes are regressive, unfairly burden the poor, increase wealth inequality and decrease class mobility.

If you're so keen on flat taxes, how about we have a flat tax on wealth ?

I am quite happy to have a fair system for all. I will pay as much as the person earning the least amount of money not a percentage of my earnings? Not fair for the poor system. Who cares? Get out and do what I am doing and earn the money.

No, I said you were prepared to leech off Government.

Because I am sick and tired of working all the bludgers.

You generally don't do any work at all for capital gain. Housing over the last few decades being a quintessential example of unearned wealth.

That's why we have capital gains taxes. To capture the increases in wealth due to luck rather than productive enterprise.

What rubbish. I took the risk to make the investment. If it fails the government gives me nothing. If I succeed they want a cut? What rubbish!

Yes, if you "pretend to live" somewhere for twelve months in order to avoid capital gains you are absolutely rorting the system. Not to mention breaking the law.

Retaining an illiquid asset instead of trading it for a liquid one is a risk you are choosing to take.

Not rorting. Not illegal. I will not rent out my investment property for 1 year and I will "live" in it. But I will actually live around the corner with my parents. I will also not be working at the same time. I may even try to be smarter and try to get a health card as well because I am paying a fortune for my medicine now and time for someone else to pay for it.

You seem to think I owe the government and the general population something I clearly do not owe them. We do not live in a communist society. I do not want to share my wealth with anyone. There is hardly enough for me.

Enough with the bleeding heart attitude.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Anyway we can always build bigger prisons despite what you say crime is a choice not a necessity

Ah, you would have fitted in well in the 1800s.

"Stole a load of bread to feed your family ? It's off to the colonies for you, my boy!"

 

[drsmithy]

As per your definition.

No, pretty sure it's per the dictionary definition.

greed [greed]
noun
excessive or rapacious desire, especially for wealth or possessions.


self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.
2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

You have disagreed with everything I said. Your view is not always right.

I never said it was. I'm happy to back up any of my views with justification and change them if someone has a better one.

I am quite happy to have a fair system for all. I will pay as much as the person earning the least amount of money not a percentage of my earnings? Not fair for the poor system. Who cares? Get out and do what I am doing and earn the money.

That's not fair because it places a higher burden for funding society on the poor and very little on the wealthy.

There's not always jobs to be had, and especially not well-paying jobs. Largely because of people like you. Your premise is broken.

Like I said, if you're so keen on flat taxes, how about we have a flat tax on wealth ?

Because I am sick and tired of working all the bludgers.

So am I, but I put up with people like you because it's a small price to pay for the majority to benefit.

What rubbish. I took the risk to make the investment. If it fails the government gives me nothing. If I succeed they want a cut? What rubbish!

If it fails you get nothing ? Weren't you just talking about how the Government was going to give you a pension ?

Not rorting. Not illegal. I will not rent out my investment property for 1 year and I will "live" in it. But I will actually live around the corner with my parents.

I reckon the ATO will disagree.

I will also not be working at the same time. I may even try to be smarter and try to get a health card as well because I am paying a fortune for my medicine now and time for someone else to pay for it.

And there you go again with the selfishness, greed and entitlement mentality.

You seem to think I owe the government and the general population something I clearly do not owe them. We do not live in a communist society. I do not want to share my wealth with anyone. There is hardly enough for me.

Mere paragraphs ago you were claiming the Government (and by extension the general population) owe you tax concessions for lying, and cheap healthcare. A few posts before that you were arguing the Government owes you a life income after you squander those savings you so jealously guard from others.

 

[medhead]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

That's not what I said. I was discussing drsmithy's comments regarding much higher tax rates in the 50s and 60s.

Personally I don't support the baby bonus, family tax benefit, housing grants, government funded parental leave, the list goes on. I believe Newstart should be higher but for a limited period of time. More money should be spent matching people on disability care with jobs they can do. We should have 1 federal system for health education transport etc removing federal/state duplication. There should be some level of tax relief/offset for super contributions available to everyone (say 15-20%). Combine this with lower tax rates across the board to encourage extra productivity.

How's that sound? BTW I am not in the top tax bracket and I don't belong to a political party. I shop at Aldi, live in the Western suburbs and drive a used car. The Aussie dream.... I just want my kids to work hard and achieve in life as I have tried to, and not be cut down for trying.

It is the implication of your first sentence.

Neither policy party offers your dream. At least the ALP started to unwind some of those things, unlike Abbott who is just bringing them back.

I hate the "work hard" catch phrase. It is absolute rubbish. I worked bloody hard when I did my army reserve work, all for the princely sum of $25 a day. I'll bet anything I worked harder than Gail Kelly (to pick out one random name) does today, yet I wasn't getting paid 10s of thousands of dollars a day. Work hard is an illusion. Your children need to do work that is valued, then it doesn't matter how hard they work. Even then it is vastly more important for your children to do work they enjoy.

As for being cut down. 9% of people paying 49% of income tax doesn't cut them down. It is very hard to find a comparable income distribution, beyond the top 20% earning about 36% of all income.

To illustrate the point I can try to extrapolate from the factoid that CEOs earn 300 times the wage of their employees. No doubt these guys are in the top 9%, and they have 300 times the capacity to pay income tax. 51% of income tax is paid by the next 66% of income earners. That's not very effective.

It's is worth getting some perspective. 2.7% of individuals earn $180000 or more. It's only once you hit $200k to $250k that you even start to pay more than a net 33% of income as tax. Less than 2.7% and I'd guess less than 2% of taxpayers face net tax rates greater than your limit. The vast majority of taxpayers do not exceed your trigger level. (We know those earning $37k to $180k pay ~70% of net tax.)

Even if they do exceed that 33% tax level, they still have heaps of money left over to enjoy life after they've paid their income tax bill. They simply are not being cut down for trying.

 

[medhead]

A
Not rorting. Not illegal. I will not rent out my investment property for 1 year and I will "live" in it. But I will actually live around the corner with my parents.

That is illegal. The tax office specifically tells us it is illegal. You must reside in the property.

I will also not be working at the same time. I may even try to be smarter and try to get a health card as well because I am paying a fortune for my medicine now and time for someone else to pay for it.

You seem to think I owe the government and the general population something I clearly do not owe them. We do not live in a communist society. I do not want to share my wealth with anyone. There is hardly enough for me.
.

You do owe them for the cost of the health care system, police, law and order, providing protections to you as an employee and consumer and a vast range of other services that the government provide to you everyday. The wealth you have is due to those protections from government. Getting sick like you did a couple of years ago, does not send you bankrupt.

If you don't like it, leave. Just F off, go live in the USA. Then you can be bankrupted when you get sick and no bleeding hearts will bother you.

 

[medhead]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

I've never shied away from earning more money and paying more tax in fact I embrace it because I'm not a parasite.

Come to the dark side it's more fun than hugging trees

Anyway we can always build bigger prisons despite what you say crime is a choice not a necessity

You are on the record saying 46.5% tax rate is a disincentive to you earning more income. The record is also clear about your willingness to pay tax at all, regardless of your false statement here. No point denying it.

You are an open book, whereas your little tree hugging sentence shows you know nothing about me. Once again you have to resort to baseless insults. Pathetic.

So who is going to pay for the prisons? Because you don't feel the need to pay for them. You're also missing the point that to get into prison, someone would have to hit you on the head and steal your money to be placed there. So your happy to be robbed just so you don't have to contribute a small share to a safety net. That's a bizarre attitude.

In any case, without a safety net for the poor it becomes a choice between staving or going on the rob, when the lords and masters (like you) don't provide work. Some choice. Sorry but your Dickensian utopia is gone, get over it.

 

[JohnK]

No, pretty sure it's per the dictionary definition.

Your bleeding heart attitude will get you nowhere. Why are you trying to make me feel guilty? Go and see if you can inspire the bludgers to do better for themselves and put more back into the system.

You want me to work my @rse off to continue helping the bludgers? No thanks. I am under no obligation to assist. I pay more than enough tax right now. And I pay through the nose for my medicines.

Lets get something straight here and not be under any illusions whatsoever. I am working to fund my retirement.

The law says if you live in a place for 12 months then that is deemed your place of residence? Correct? So why would I sell an investment property right now when I am on the top tax bracket and hand over $50,000 of my hard earned money? Why not live in it for 12 months before selling? Should I feel guilty I am not paying my way? How am I rorting? What I am proposing is legal.

And once I have received that money I am under no obligation whatsoever to invest it. I will go out and spend it as quickly as possible. I earned that money working hard. That money will be spent on me.

So at the end of the day if I end up with nothing then the government is obliged to help me as I have been helping others for most of my working life. I have contributed a lot more than the bludgers who have everything handed to them now.

Leave me alone with your bleeding heart attitude.

 

[medhead]

Your bleeding heart attitude will get you nowhere. Why are you trying to make me feel guilty? Go and see if you can inspire the bludgers to do better for themselves and put more back into the system.

You want me to work my @rse off to continue helping the bludgers? No thanks. I am under no obligation to assist. I pay more than enough tax right now. And I pay through the nose for my medicines.

Medicines? PBS medicines? You do realise the government heavily subsidises PBS prescription medicines? It would seem that your taxes could be going to subsidising your medicines. Like I said, move to the USA if you wish to pay your own way.

Lets get something straight here and not be under any illusions whatsoever. I am working to fund my retirement.

The law says if you live in a place for 12 months then that is deemed your place of residence? Correct? So why would I sell an investment property right now when I am on the top tax bracket and hand over $50,000 of my hard earned money? Why not live in it for 12 months before selling? Should I feel guilty I am not paying my way? How am I rorting? What I am proposing is legal.
.

The rort is that you outright stated you will not be living in the property. IF you live there it is your residence. It is not you residence IF you live somewhere else.

In any case, it sounds like this property is currently rented out. if this property is already earning income you still have to pay capital gains tax, even if you move in later. You can apportion the gain between time as investment property and time as residence. But you still are liable for CGT. So illegal to not declare the gain if you move in for 12 months.

The only way the avoid CGT is if you move into the property first. If you then temporary move away, with the intention of returning to the property, you can rent it out for 7 years without having to pay CGT when you sell (within the 7 years)

So 2 potential illegalities. Pretending to live in the property and not declaring a capital gain.

 

[The Rok]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Medhead I think you will find that some peoples view of the world has them at the centre of it, and everybody else is there to serve them. The sense of entitlement and selfishness is astounding.

The rose tinted glasses of some people are very cloudy indeed.

 

[JohnK]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Medhead I think you will find that some peoples view of the world has them at the centre of it, and everybody else is there to serve them. The sense of entitlement is selfishness is astounding.

The rose tinted glasses of some people are very cloudy indeed.

Is that warped statement supposed to make me feel guilty?

If you feel any grief over my statement that I dont want to support the Borg collective mentality of bleeding hearts then go and hug a tree. That should make you feel better.

Next you are you going to tell me I cant retire in a couple of years and must work until I am 70.

 

[medhead]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Is that warped statement supposed to make me feel guilty?

If you feel any grief over my statement that I dont want to support the Borg collective mentality of bleeding hearts then go and hug a tree. That should make you feel better.

Next you are you going to tell me I cant retire in a couple of years and must work until I am 70.

How could it be expected to make you feel guilty? You can't even recognise the illegality of your proposals or the money of other taxpayers that your demanding to support your lifestyle.

Welching on your tax obligations is outright theft.

 

[whatmeworry]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

RBA points out Tony Abbott not spending enough on infrastructure.

With a central banker’s careful phrasing, governor Glenn Stevens used one of the precious sentences in today’s brief post-board statement to point out that public spending is forecast to be “quite weak”.

Read more: RBA points the fiscal finger

 

[cove]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Everyone is allowed to arrange their tax affairs in such a way that minimizes taxes. It is not as if the Governments over the past decade have spent the money wisely.
I still pay plenty of income tax and I see the point of raising the GST rate to catch a piece of the black economy.