ACCC action re cancelled Qantas flights

[Mr H]

It's a bit like buying a ticket to a concert involving an international artist.

Actually that's a good example. Having experienced a cancelled concert myself last year (Eric Bogle, if anyone is interested), I was told the concert would be rescheduled for another unspecified date in the future and my money would not be refunded.

 

[Quickstatus]

complete spin

Am I allowed to say I'm trying to give the airline some benefit of doubt

rescheduled for another unspecified date in the future

Except that according to Qantas they waited until an alternative date was available before notifying the customer.

 

[Mr H]

Except that according to Qantas they waited until an alternative date was available before notifying the customer.

That seems sensible. Being able to present solutions to customers and not just problems. What is the point of tying up people's time in fruitless calls to the call centre when they have not yet worked out what to offer people instead?

 

[RooFlyer]

That seems sensible. Being able to present solutions to customers and not just problems. What is the point of tying up people's time in fruitless calls to the call centre when they have not yet worked out what to offer people instead?

That applies to customers who bought bundles of rights when the flight was still scheduled to operate. The crux of the ACCC action concerns those passengers who bought bundles of rights by the airline when the airline knew that the service wouldn’t be operating yet kept the bundle of rights on sale.

And, by the way, that perhaps ‘sensible’ approach isn’t being undertaken by Qantas today. We’ve seen recent examples where a passenger has been notified by text of a cancellation and that they will be notified of the alternative some later stage.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

It's a bit like buying a ticket to a concert involving an international artist. You know when you buy that ticket that many things might intervene and the concert may not go ahead - everything from COVID border closures to artist getting sick to promoter going broke, but imagine the furore if the concert was secretly cancelled and the promoter did not tell you that the concert was cancelled and continued to sell tickets to that, take your money and then put you through the sort of hurdles that Qantas does to get your money back.

What I cannot understand is why they are using COVID and supply chains as an excuse. I mean, look, these allegations are made about flights that were taking place last year, in 2022, a full two years after this COVID nonsense started. Is Qantas telling us with a straight face that COVID is still an unforeseen thing from an airline perspective? One wonders if they will continue using this excuse in 10 years time!

Actually that's a good example. Having experienced a cancelled concert myself last year (Eric Bogle, if anyone is interested), I was told the concert would be rescheduled for another unspecified date in the future and my money would not be refunded.

That's where you call up your credit card company and request a charge back.

That seems sensible. Being able to present solutions to customers and not just problems. What is the point of tying up people's time in fruitless calls to the call centre when they have not yet worked out what to offer people instead?

The thing is there are solutions right away. How do I know? I can open up WebJet and find a solution in 10 seconds when I encounter a cancelled flight. Now maybe Qantas is suggesting finding a solution that involves flying them, but sometimes that's not the case and Qantas should simply eat the cost. After all, they were the ones causing the cancellation not the traveller. Frankly it shouldn't take days or weeks to solve a schedule change issue with some airlines having automated systems in place to find alternate flights and rebook passengers.

 

[bcworld]

Is Qantas telling us with a straight face that COVID is still an unforeseen thing from an airline perspective? One wonders if they will continue using this excuse in 10 years time!

Well Qantas runs call centres that have been experiencing unusually high call volumes for about 10 years so...

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Well Qantas runs call centres that have been experiencing unusually high call volumes for about 10 years so...

My favourite bit calling into Qantas call centres is their hold message which says, "Your call was important to us... 30 years ago!"

 

[tdimdad]

Did the executive push aside any risk management concerns in its rush to return to the skies?

Risk management is an integral part of good management. That's where the problem for Qantas is...

 

[oz_mark]

And, by the way, that perhaps ‘sensible’ approach isn’t being undertaken by Qantas today. We’ve seen recent examples where a passenger has been notified by text of a cancellation and that they will be notified of the alternative some later stage.

Although, In my experience, they never seem to follow up with being notified of an alternative.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Just came across this interesting opinion piece in the Australian by Terry McCann who argues that Qantas is justified to fight what they deem to be the ACCC's overreach making the argument that the impact to travellers was minimal and that COVID was reason enough to explain away their poor operational performance and lack of duty of care to the customers:

Opinion | The ACCC is getting too big for its boots, with Qantas right to take it on — The Australian

Qantas has entirely plausible explanations for the so-called ‘ghost flights’ it’s being pilloried for, and the ACCC should stand down.

apple.news

Whilst I don't agree with their assessment it is always interesting to hear the other argument (even if it is completely wrong)

-RooFlyer88

 

[TheRealTMA]

Just came across this interesting opinion piece in the Australian by Terry McCann who argues that Qantas is justified to fight what they deem to be the ACCC's overreach making the argument that the impact to travellers was minimal and that COVID was reason enough to explain away their poor operational performance and lack of duty of care to the customers:

Opinion | The ACCC is getting too big for its boots, with Qantas right to take it on — The Australian

Qantas has entirely plausible explanations for the so-called ‘ghost flights’ it’s being pilloried for, and the ACCC should stand down.

apple.news

Whilst I don't agree with their assessment it is always interesting to hear the other argument (even if it is completely wrong)

-RooFlyer88

Yes I saw that and thought is was complete rubbish. Just another typical shallow attempt to attack sensible business regulation and the government. Unfortunately, Terry McCann who one upon a time used to write good articles.

IMHO: ACCC should have been more proactive, and e should have had legislation to force airlines to honour their commitments. EU laws on travel are one thing we should also have here.

 

[Quickstatus]

Australian by Terry McCann who argues that Qantas is justified to fight what they deem to be the ACCC's overreach

Alan Joyce made a press conference back in Nov 2021 about QF returning to the skies internationally when the Fed govt open int borders and domestically when 2Vax hit 80% for each state. Many people were looking forward to the return to the skies. There was a lot of pent up demand and AJ was right to try an exploit that. However that IMO was also the problem.

My recollection was that the airline was not proactive about Omicron when it hit. It tried to maintain schedules in the face of Omicron, cancelling flights reactively - the passenger demand was there and the airline was pushing hard to harvest it. But eventually it had to pare back its flight schedules after heavy criticism about flight cancellations and delays. Even the pilots at the time were saying the environment was not safe - could someone recall what the pilots said?.

While hindsight is 20/20 post facto, using Omicron as an excuse now is terribly disingenuous. IMO the executives at Qantas were pushing as hard as possible even in the face of Omicron to fly as many flights as possible. While it was impossible to completely mitigate the effects of O on the airline schedule and their passengers, I think the airline should have heeded their employees and pilots and be more proactive during the Omicron period. IMO The cancellations due to O were in some part due to the airline mismanagement.

 

[CaptJCool]

Alan Joyce made a press conference back in Nov 2021 about QF returning to the skies internationally when the Fed govt open int borders and domestically when 2Vax hit 80% for each state. Many people were looking forward to the return to the skies. There was a lot of pent up demand and AJ was right to try an exploit that. However that IMO was also the problem.

My recollection was that the airline was not proactive about Omicron when it hit. It tried to maintain schedules in the face of Omicron, cancelling flights reactively - the passenger demand was there and the airline was pushing hard to harvest it. But eventually it had to pare back its flight schedules after heavy criticism about flight cancellations and delays.

So Omicron was after 30 September 2021?

Because from that date, unannounced border closures still happened and it’s likely a whole pile of people did flight credits which had nothing like the extra time period to use them.
Worse was limited period plus excessively high fares meant people like my elderly mother gave up and gifted over $500 to AJ

 

[Quickstatus]

So Omicron was after 30 September 2021?

First confirmed case in Australia Early December 2021

 

[Quickstatus]

Being able to present solutions to customers and not just problems

Except that thousands of passengers were not notified until , not 48 hrs later, but several weeks and in many cases up to 48 days later.

 

[Danger]

One Mile at a Time has some coverage of this and the "quite some questionable claims" from Qantas. I was particularly interested in this, where apparently the manage my booking page is about as worthless as the priority boarding benefit:

Qantas made no representation, at any time, that any particular flight had not been cancelled. Further, Qantas did not represent to consumers that the “Manage Booking” page would, at all times, necessarily reflect the latest scheduling decisions that Qantas had made.

In other words, when you manage my booking page says "Confirmed", it's actually open to interpretation.

Qantas Argues It Doesn't Sell Tickets For Flights, But "Bundle Of Rights"

Qantas is trying to avoid a huge fine for selling tickets on canceled flights, by arguing that the airline doesn't actually sell tickets.

onemileatatime.com

 

[TheRealTMA]

Alan Joyce made a press conference back in Nov 2021 about QF returning to the skies internationally when the Fed govt open int borders and domestically when 2Vax hit 80% for each state. Many people were looking forward to the return to the skies. There was a lot of pent up demand and AJ was right to try an exploit that. However that IMO was also the problem.

but don't forget the previous gave them some 2.5 billion dollars of Taxpayer's money, with no payback, to keep flying and pay executives.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

That seems sensible. Being able to present solutions to customers and not just problems. What is the point of tying up people's time in fruitless calls to the call centre when they have not yet worked out what to offer people instead?

But… that should be for the passenger to decide!

Say ‘we’ve cancelled the flight and you can either (a) choose any qantas flight at no extra cost, (b) wait for us to propose alternative arrangements, or (c) get a full refund)’

Automatic rebooking can be just as hard for the passenger if they don’t like what’s been rebooked… still have to wait for hours on the phone to change it.

It shouldn’t be for any company to decide unilaterally what’s in the best interests of the customer.

 

[TheRealTMA]

But… that should be for the passenger to decide!

Say ‘we’ve cancelled the flight and you can either (a) choose any qantas flight at no extra cost, (b) wait for us to propose alternative arrangements, or (c) get a full refund)’

Automatic rebooking can be just as hard for the passenger if they don’t like what’s been rebooked… still have to wait for hours on the phone to change it.

It shouldn’t be for any company to decide unilaterally what’s in the best interests of the customer.

Exactly. How dare QF decide they are do what they want as the only option. The customer should have absolute “Rights” over the company’s failure to deliver the service the customer has paid for.

 

[bam71]

What I cannot understand is why they are using COVID and supply chains as an excuse. I mean, look, these allegations are made about flights that were taking place last year, in 2022, a full two years after this COVID nonsense started. Is Qantas telling us with a straight face that COVID is still an unforeseen thing from an airline perspective? One wonders if they will continue using this excuse in 10 years time!

That's where you call up your credit card company and request a charge back.

The thing is there are solutions right away. How do I know? I can open up WebJet and find a solution in 10 seconds when I encounter a cancelled flight. Now maybe Qantas is suggesting finding a solution that involves flying them, but sometimes that's not the case and Qantas should simply eat the cost. After all, they were the ones causing the cancellation not the traveller. Frankly it shouldn't take days or weeks to solve a schedule change issue with some airlines having automated systems in place to find alternate flights and rebook passengers.

Totally THIS!