AFR's Joe Aston goes BAM!

[drron]

Of course there was the Premier of NSW who resigned because he accepted a bottle of red wine though it was an expensive one.

 

[justinbrett]

Albo is now pointing the finger at PD for accepting free flights with Gina Rinehart. He also flung a heap of mud at JA for his undeclared links to the Liberal party.

 

[DejaBrew]

Public officials should not even accept "gifts". There should be nothing to declare. The line is already crossed when a declaration is made.

That's an opinion though, and whilst I'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong, it's not the standard to which politicians are currently held (unless I'm very much mistaken).

Of course there was the Premier of NSW who resigned because he accepted a bottle of red wine though it was an expensive one.

Wasn't that primarily over a failure to declare the gift rather than the act of receiving the gift itself? Obviously there was also the incorrect evidence given to ICAC (which he subsequently clarified).

Albo is now pointing the finger at PD for accepting free flights with Gina Rinehart. He also flung a heap of mud at JA for his undeclared links to the Liberal party.

Herein lies the risk for all politicians and journos when slinging mud - they need to ensure that their own house is spotlessly clean if they're going to start going after others.

 

[Greg555]

New update on the saga of the biography of Uncle Alan to be released on October 29th titled, "The Chairman’s Lounge: The Inside Story of How Qantas Sold Us Out" by Joe Aston. As reported by Myriam Robin from the AFR's Rear Window column, it would seem that Qantas is not too pleased about the biography writing that,

It should be noted that Myriam wrote earlier this month in the AFR that Uncle Alan has hired two high powered PR operatives (Steve Lewis and Andrew Maiden) to turn on the spin cycle ahead of the release of this biography, which no doubt will not be the most flattering thing written about the former CEO of Qantas.

So I think this raises the question, what is the purpose of this joint effort by Qantas and Uncle Alan to spin what will undoubtedly be an unflattering biography on the man and the legacy he has saddled Qantas with:

1. Reducing the likelihood more of Uncle Alan's golden parachute gets whittled away
2. Reducing the likelihood that the government will meddle in the affairs of Qantas, particularly surrounding things like consumer rights
3. Something else?

In any event, it's good to see the biography is coming to fruition and I for one certainly look forward to reading this on my next long haul Qantas flight.

-RooFlyer88

I've made several posts re the disgrace that Qantas is, especially in response to the Qantas apologists that frequent this forum. <redacted>

 

[Quickstatus]

What is your definition of a public official.

Anyone employed by the Government....

So anyone who happens to have a job in the public service has to be a second class citizen when an airline makes an offer of an upgrade even for operational reasons

Yes I do, and no that person is not a second class citizen - their constitutional rights as a citizen are not reduced. Their role, however, requires the utmost discretion and propriety.

 

[RooFlyer]

I think it’s been neglected by some that the problem Joe Aston has highlighted is that the then opposition transport spokesman allegedly actively solicited an upgrade for private family travel apparently directly to Alan Joyce. This is quite a bit different from accepting an upgrade in general, in terms of it being an active solicitation, the position that the person held and who it was requested from.

The request ( if made) was for a benefit of tens of thousands of dollars to him and his family personally from the CEO of a company. And it was granted to a senior polutic figure who ultimately may have the task of regulating that company.

try visualising this in terms of being a finance minister or spokesman and the CEO of a Bank, requesting a benefit of tens of thousands of dollars. I wonder how that would play out?

 

[moa999]

I've got no-issue with op-ups being given to pollies or other status members, particularly on business.

But the suggestion of a politician soliciting for upgrades on personal travel is crossing the line imho.

Imagine the outcry if it was found a pollie had been speaking to Kerry or Ryan Stokes about getting a truckload of bricks (SGH controls Boral these days) for their new house build.

 

[p--and--t]

Yes I do, and no that person is not a second class citizen - their constitutional rights as a citizen are not reduced. Their role, however, requires the utmost discretion and propriety.

Ok that is a standard that I'm afraid would not stand a reality test. Two nurses working at the local public hospital one on permanent staff, one on contract through an agency. One cant accept, the other can. I don't think so.

YMMV

 

[kangarooflyer88]

I think it’s been neglected by some that the problem Joe Aston has highlighted is that the then opposition transport spokesman allegedly actively solicited an upgrade for private family travel apparently directly to Alan Joyce. This is quite a bit different from accepting an upgrade in general, in terms of it being an active solicitation, the position that the person held and who it was requested from.

Since when was solicitation a crime?

 

[RooFlyer]

Since when was solicitation a crime?

I think I know what you’re getting at, but to answer your question when you solicit a bribe for instance.

No question of that being the case in the circumstances being discussed here but requesting, and then being granted favours with substantial monetary value from a business which you may end up regulating is very very questionable IMHO.

 

[serfty]

Since when was solicitation a crime?

It can be when in conjunction with other actions, not that the matters being discussed here are so.

e.g. See ACT CODE 2002 - SECT 359.

 

[Pushka]

I haven't been a minister nor in the political class but having been a very highly statused passenger in the past, if they didn’t upgrade me first, i would always ask at the airport and if not available ask for the exit row. Never felt guilty for a second.

Whether they did or didn’t would never have changed my decision making.

Now I have zero status I still ask for exit row (if I didn't prebook). Theres no harm in asking, they can always politely say no.

The issue is being in a position of influence on those who grant you favors, treats and gifts.

 

[Quickstatus]

Two nurses working at the local public hospital one on permanent staff, one on contract through an agency

Both are subject to the same Governance rules, so I dont see the difference. Additionally there are ethical considerations for health care workers. Drs and Nurses should be very careful in accepting personal gifts from patients. It is best in those circumstances to share the gift with everyone on the ward.

 

[Kerrodt]

I think it’s been neglected by some that the problem Joe Aston has highlighted is that the then opposition transport spokesman allegedly actively solicited an upgrade for private family travel apparently directly to Alan Joyce. This is quite a bit different from accepting an upgrade in general, in terms of it being an active solicitation, the position that the person held and who it was requested from.

The request ( if made) was for a benefit of tens of thousands of dollars to him and his family personally from the CEO of a company. And it was granted to a senior polutic figure who ultimately may have the task of regulating that company.

try visualising this in terms of being a finance minister or spokesman and the CEO of a Bank, requesting a benefit of tens of thousands of dollars. I wonder how that would play out?

@RooFlyer you are absolutely correct in your analysis here.

I would add a second limb to this.

Joyce seemed to cultivate an environment with people who he could use to lean on in the future if he needed to.

In broad terms, the CL was the integral plank in this.

In very narrow terms, Albo, in his various roles over the years was an obvious target, and it would seem the fact that Albo accepted the upgrades, and was confident enough to call and request upgrades, seems to highlight that Albo was a soft target.

Anyone who is into cultivating targets for future gain/favourable treatment, loves nothing more than a soft target.

I would imagine that there are numerous other targets within the CL atmosphere that were targeted similarly - the soft ones acceded, the not so soft ones rejected the advances.

We can easily paint a target on the back of Albo's shirt and fire arrows at him. But to me, the greater villain in all of this is Joyce - the anti-corruption training at QF should have meant that he should never have been doing what he was doing. Absolutely everything should have been at a very very long arms distance, and every instance where Albo/other government officers in ministries/departments relevant to QF got special treatment from AJ and/or other QF representatives should have been recorded in the QF Conflicts of Interest register.

The interesting document to read would be the QF Conflicts of Interest Register - if such a thing exists.

 

[p--and--t]

The issue is being in a position of influence on those who grant you favors, treats and gifts.

Well I was, potentially, in a way, but not in reality. I controlled a largish travel budget for several staff. But never did it even cross my mind to make any attempt to influence their choice of provider nor did the many gifts and status from both airlines have any influence on who my secretary booked my flights with.

 

[mbell1510]

Albo is now pointing the finger at PD for accepting free flights with Gina Rinehart. He also flung a heap of mud at JA for his undeclared links to the Liberal party.

The old Donald Trump line of attack.

On a more serious matter.... A lot of members here talk about being downgraded from J to W or Y on flights. Has the reason all along for this, just been Albo on the blower trying to get an upgrade?

 

[Quickstatus]

Albo complains that he has declared everything. The problem is that people do not believe that a 'declaration' removes all hint of impropriety because it simply does not. It is impossible to say that the "gift" was not an influence even if it did not. Don't cross the line in the first place.

But never did it even cross my mind to make any attempt to influence their choice of provider

And here is where many people miss the point. It is not enough to say it never crossed my mind, it is not enough to hand on heart say I didn't. The mere hint of improper influence is fatal.

 

[DejaBrew]

In very narrow terms, Albo, in his various roles over the years was an obvious target, and it would seem the fact that Albo accepted the upgrades, and was confident enough to call and request upgrades, seems to highlight that Albo was a soft target.

Is the scenario of Albo calling AJ and requesting the upgrades a matter of fact and public record, or is it still speculation? The upgrades themselves were supposedly disclosed, but the manner in which said upgrades were obtained seems to be largely unverified at this time.

We can easily paint a target on the back of Albo's shirt and fire arrows at him. But to me, the greater villain in all of this is Joyce - the anti-corruption training at QF should have meant that he should never have been doing what he was doing. Absolutely everything should have been at a very very long arms distance, and every instance where Albo/other government officers in ministries/departments relevant to QF got special treatment from AJ and/or other QF representatives should have been recorded in the QF Conflicts of Interest register.

Excellent point!

Albo complains that he has declared everything. The problem is that people do not believe that a 'declaration' removes all hint of impropriety because it simply does not. It is impossible to say that the "gift" was not an influence even if it did not. Don't cross the line in the first place.

And here is where many people miss the point. It is not enough to say it never crossed my mind, it is not enough to hand on heart say I didn't. The mere hint of improper influence is fatal.

Not saying I disagree with your perspective, but as I posted previously, the question will be whether or not he actually did anything "wrong" as per the existing - or historic - rules/guidelines? If he did not, then he has no case to answer (purely from that perspective). Of course there is the court of public opinion / pub test / sniff test / etc, and if he is seen to have failed this, then I would expect that he'll be punished at the polls.

 

[offshore171]

@RooFlyer

Joyce seemed to cultivate an environment with people who he could use to lean on in the future if he needed to.

I think that's a good point.

If it is indeed true that upgrades were solicited by an incumbent transport minister making direct representations to the CEO, then Joyce should have immediately declined these requests, and reported it at the time to the authorities.

Qantas should never have acceded to such requests (if these reports are accurate).

A standard part of our anti corruption training at work.

 

[p--and--t]

Albo complains that he has declared everything. The problem is that people do not believe that a 'declaration' removes all hint of impropriety because it simply does not. It is impossible to say that the "gift" was not an influence even if it did not. Don't cross the line in the first place.

And here is where many people miss the point. It is not enough to say it never crossed my mind, it is not enough to hand on heart say I didn't. The mere hint of improper influence is fatal.

Hmmm i see a hint of guilty until proven innocent in your posts.