Air Asia drama ex-Per

[coriander]

Actually he didn't. That's not RdC on the PA. It's David Evans. Not only does he do a good PA, but he's a particularly good operator.

Thank you, I stand corrected.

It's been a couple of years since I read QF32. I was actually reading the book on QF93 in 2015 when I heard "this is your captain David Evans speaking....."

The CSM saw me reading the book and I asked him "is our pilot the same David Evans?". He said it was. The CSM then organised a coughpit visit for Mrs C and I on arrival at LAX. That was greatest highlight of the trip. David and his crew were absolutely wonderful, friendly (and very patient with a rabid gunzel like me) really VERY impressive. We briefly discussed QF32, David was very humble and self-effacing saying it was a team effort in which all the crew played vital parts in its successful outcome.

Pilots like him are why I fly with Qantas.

 

[jb747]

For those who think flying away from Learmonth was reasonable.....

This is a report about Cathay 330 that lost a much smaller section of blade. The aircraft was subsequently airborne for about 30 minutes. In that time, the vibration and associated rubbing caused numerous cracks in the structure of the pylon, and plumbing around the engine. It subsequently caught fire, even though shut down.

https://www.mot.gov.sg/news/20140822 CX 330 Engine Fire 16 May 11- Final Report.pdf

 

[OZDUCK]

Thank you, I stand corrected.

It's been a couple of years since I read QF32. I was actually reading the book on QF93 in 2015 when I heard "this is your captain David Evans speaking....."

The CSM saw me reading the book and I asked him "is our pilot the same David Evans?". He said it was. The CSM then organised a coughpit visit for Mrs C and I on arrival at LAX. That was greatest highlight of the trip. David and his crew were absolutely wonderful, friendly (and very patient with a rabid gunzel like me) really VERY impressive. We briefly discussed QF32, David was very humble and self-effacing saying it was a team effort in which all the crew played vital parts in its successful outcome.

Pilots like him are why I fly with Qantas.

A nice story & thank you for introducing me to a new word - Gunzel. I had to look it up as I only knew the word Gunsel a la The Maltese Falcon which has a very different meaning.

 

[farstar]

For those who think flying away from Learmonth was reasonable.....

This is a report about Cathay 330 that lost a much smaller section of blade. The aircraft was subsequently airborne for about 30 minutes. In that time, the vibration and associated rubbing caused numerous cracks in the structure of the pylon, and plumbing around the engine. It subsequently caught fire, even though shut down.

https://www.mot.gov.sg/news/20140822 CX 330 Engine Fire 16 May 11- Final Report.pdf

To me it seems that the pilot needs to answer why they didn't land at the first available airport. I would want to be on the ground ASAP if there was a problem like this, safety should always be first. In this case safety was not the priority it seems to me. In the end Air Asia was lucky.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Apologies if this has been posted already... interview with the captain of the flight: https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/...ly-thinking-passengers-safety-pilot-airasia-x

Asked why he decided to return to Perth instead of landing at the airports of Geraldton or Learmonth which were significantly nearer, Ibrahim said that the decision was made after consulting Low and weighing various factors.
“The emergency that we were undergoing did not require immediate landing. Based on Airbus’ and AirAsia’s SOP (standard operating procedure), emergency landings are permissible in cases involving fire and smoke.
“I had also not landed at Geraldton or Learmonth (because I was not familiar with) their locations or runways, and the plane was heavy. There was also a possibility that more equipment would get damaged in landing,” he added.

According to the captain his voice was shaking because of the vibration, and the newspaper confidently states that some passengers on the flights have 'defamed' the captain for suggesting he was not calm.

DJ's SOP only requires landing for engine fire or smoke in cabin. I wonder if they have considered the CX incident and discounted it, or haven't considered it at all?

 

[jb747]

DJ's SOP only requires landing for engine fire or smoke in cabin. I wonder if they have considered the CX incident and discounted it, or haven't considered it at all?

Emergency landings can happen whenever the captain decides. Anyway, the CX report, of an aircraft with a very similar failure, led to fire...even after the shutdown.

As to familiarity with runways...well, I wouldn't consider Geraldton either...but it's very hard to discount Learmonth. The problem is that I get the feeling that they were never considered at all. My FMCs are regularly programmed with places I hope never to go to, and the iPads are often opened up for a look at places that have nothing to offer...other than being on the ground.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Emergency landings can happen whenever the captain decides.

I'm not disagreeing. The concern is the captain quoting manufacturer and company SOPs to say he didn't have to land. Which raises two issues... the one you mention (the captain can override) and secondly, whether the SOPs are reflective of best practice (for example after the CX incident).

The article looks like another piece of attempted PR.

 

[whatmeworry]

Your think the Captain's own self preservation would have been enough to divert to Learmonth.

 

[Borisdog]

As I've mentioned before, I work in a nasty place where lots of things have the potential to kill people. SOPs are rife in my place too.

One really, REALLY big problem SOPs create is that some people believe it removes their need to think objectively and subsequently act in exactly that way.

 

[Quickstatus]

Apologies if this has been posted already... interview with the captain of the flight: https://www.nst.com.my/news/nation/...ly-thinking-passengers-safety-pilot-airasia-x



According to the captain his voice was shaking because of the vibration, and the newspaper confidently states that some passengers on the flights have 'defamed' the captain for suggesting he was not calm.

DJ's SOP only requires landing for engine fire or smoke in cabin. I wonder if they have considered the CX incident and discounted it, or haven't considered it at all?

So the SOP does not require an emergency landing when an explosive decompression such as QF30 occurs?. or when all engines flameout from a bird strike, or hydraulic failure, or pilot incapacitation, ........

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So the SOP does not require an emergency landing when an explosive decompression such as QF30 occurs?. or when all engines flameout from a bird strike, or hydraulic failure, or pilot incapacitation, ........

The captain was only referring, presumably, to this specific set of circumstances. SOPs... damned if you do and damned if you don't. Experienced captains will know when the SOP isn't working, less experienced crew will need them so they don't get in to whole lot more mess than they're already in.

 

[ermen]

Well the problem with SOPs is that they could come back and bite you.

Say he decides to divert to Learmouth or Geraldton or wherever, and subsequently something happens on the ground (say plane caught fire, no fire crew etc), captain will be castigated for doing something out of SOP.

If he followed the SOP to a tee, but something happens, he would be ok.

It's just the CYA world we live in...

 

[jb747]

Based on Airbus’ and AirAsia’s SOP (standard operating procedure), emergency landings are permissible in cases involving fire and smoke.

I found what is likely a reference to this in the Airbus manual yesterday. In a section where it's discussing the need to land ASAP, it mentions "fire and smoke" as examples of when it would be a good idea. It most certainly isn't exclusive, and I can think of innumerable other reasons.

 

[dajop]

Experienced captains will know when the SOP isn't working, less experienced crew will need them so they don't get in to whole lot more mess than they're already in.

This is the single biggest thing that worries me when flying Singapore and Malaysian crewed carriers where the education systems is all about rote learning and following rules. The ability to think laterally and complicated problem solving is something that is not as common (and those with such abilities probably go onto bigger and better things). whilst blind adherence to SOPs and rules is . I see this in the workplace every day. It does not surprise me that it may carry over to coughpits, and if I recall correctly investigations into several incidents in the region have highlighted this as a problem.

 

[jb747]

It's not a problem that is confined to certain nationalities. I've flown with some extremely good Malaysian pilots.

I think the issue exists everywhere that is embracing low hour pilots. Historically, they've learnt about airmanship in an environment where they can't hurt many people, but now 200 hours in the right hand seat of an airliner is the norm. That flows on and you eventually end up with captains who can't do a go around, or fly a visual approach. If SOPs could cover everything, they'd be thousands of pages long, and they'd still miss stuff.

Actually SOPs don't really cover any of this stuff. By definition, they cover the 'standard'.

 

[yohy?!]

It's not a problem that is confined to certain nationalities. I've flown with some extremely good Malaysian pilots.

I think the issue exists everywhere that is embracing low hour pilots. Historically, they've learnt about airmanship in an environment where they can't hurt many people, but now 200 hours in the right hand seat of an airliner is the norm. That flows on and you eventually end up with captains who can't do a go around, or fly a visual approach. If SOPs could cover everything, they'd be thousands of pages long, and they'd still miss stuff.

Actually SOPs don't really cover any of this stuff. By definition, they cover the 'standard'.

this is the real issue - the first office on an Air Asia flight being paid less than a flight attendant and with minimal hours or experience to handle the aircraft on their own.

it should give pause to anyone thinking of booking with Air Asia ever in my mind...

 

[jb747]

this is the real issue - the first office on an Air Asia flight being paid less than a flight attendant and with minimal hours or experience to handle the aircraft on their own.

it should give pause to anyone thinking of booking with Air Asia ever in my mind...

Not just Air Asia. Same sort of stuff happens much closer to home.

In this sort of event, the FO isn't being asked to do anything on his own, but, you want FOs (and SOs) who aren't afraid to ask the captain "do you really want to do that", or "have you considered this...?". Good ones earn their keep.

 

[ermen]

We obey orders or people die...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyKJeXDoqnw

 

[andyhui01]

In this sort of event, the FO isn't being asked to do anything on his own, but, you want FOs (and SOs) who aren't afraid to ask the captain "do you really want to do that", or "have you considered this...?". Good ones earn their keep.

In some cultures (particularly Asian cultures). Challenging their superior is frowned upon and would not go down well. I have no idea if this is the same culture in a coughpit but in a normal office in Malaysia, you would find most would just keep their mouth shut

 

[jb747]

When it rains, it pours.

Another event last night (3/7) out of Coolangatta. Supposedly bird strike related, but images of the engine today are showing a section of the fan tip missing. Seems a lot of damage for a couple of plovers, but I guess you can never tell.

Go to www.liveatc.net Search for YBBN. Select YBBN And/Twr/App/Dep archives. 3 July, and time 1230Z. Gets interesting from about 22:30 onwards.