AMEX not accepted or surcharge

[Foreigner]

Running a restaurant, like most other businesses, is quite challenging. See the article in this link how tough it is:

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...itchens-face-harsh-winter-20120702-21cyg.html

 

[sparoz]

You're assuming the buyer really has pushed the car dealer "to the limit" on the price of the car though - there's a general perception that all cars are sold on razor-fine margins nowadays, but it's far from true.

Personally, if I wanted to pay for a car on credit card I'd negotiate to the point of a "deal" without mentioning the card payment, but I'd be accepting of some sort of reasonable surcharge being introduced once it's brought up if I felt the dealer would "walk" from the deal without it.

I guess I came from the perspective that I know exactly how much the dealer makes before I started negotiation, so I know how much I can push. Having friends working high up in the industry helps and you learn all those trick to get the best price. I don't know what is your definition of razor-fine margin is, but a good car dealership operates on a net margin of less than 3%, and less for the not so good operators. A 2% merchant charge on the whole car will significantly eat into the sustainability. Remember the 2% applies to the LCT component too where the dealer makes no margin. Personally, I don't think it is fair to negotiate a price that both party is happy with, and then expect the dealer to lose another 2%. This is a bit OT so this is an over simplified version, but just want to put things into perspective.

My industry have enough gross margin to absorb the charge and I don't think it is right to have a surcharge. However, they are some industry where the surcharge can make a substantial difference in the profitability of the transaction and the car industry is definitely one of it.

 

[Cruiser Elite]

Currently in Copenhagen but just cruzing Herald Sun web site - interesting little piece - Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun and http://www.couriermail.com.au/money...ovt-reserve-bank/story-fn3hskur-1226419910377 - yeah I know same stable / same sire / different pony but.

A 'Taxi Environment Service Fee' - maybe i should have posted this in 'A Bit of Humour' thread?

Whilst there is no direct reference to AMEX that I saw wouldn't you think one of these so called journalists would elicit a response from the other major player?

 

[wafliron]

I guess I came from the perspective that I know exactly how much the dealer makes before I started negotiation, so I know how much I can push. Having friends working high up in the industry helps and you learn all those trick to get the best price.

Mmm fair enough then, I was more referring to your average punter. Do you also know what sort of volume rebates, etc, the dealership may be getting though? I'm not trying to be combative by saying that... just pointing out that it's not necessarily as straight forward as knowing the wholesale cost of the car.

I don't know what is your definition of razor-fine margin is, but a good car dealership operates on a net margin of less than 3%, and less for the not so good operators.

By a literal definition I agree that 3% is a razor-fine margin, but you do also have to take into account the size of the transaction - and on the sort of money moving through most car dealerships I personally wouldn't call 3% razor-fine. That being said, I was more referring to people (I know many) who think the margins are even finer than that - and was also talking about the gross margin on the car itself (which will, on average, be quite a bit higher than 3%), not the entire business.

A 2% merchant charge on the whole car will significantly eat into the sustainability. Remember the 2% applies to the LCT component too where the dealer makes no margin. Personally, I don't think it is fair to negotiate a price that both party is happy with, and then expect the dealer to lose another 2%. This is a bit OT so this is an over simplified version, but just want to put things into perspective.

I don't disagree - hence why I said I'd accept a reasonable (i.e. passing-on-costs only) surcharge being introduced if I only brought up the CC payment after a price had been negotiated. I feel that bringing it up earlier would just result in the dealership trying to use it as leverage and muddy the negotiation - but YMMV of course.

 

[sparoz]

Mmm fair enough then, I was more referring to your average punter. Do you also know what sort of volume rebates, etc, the dealership may be getting though? I'm not trying to be combative by saying that... just pointing out that it's not necessarily as straight forward as knowing the wholesale cost of the car.

By a literal definition I agree that 3% is a razor-fine margin, but you do also have to take into account the size of the transaction - and on the sort of money moving through most car dealerships I personally wouldn't call 3% razor-fine. That being said, I was more referring to people (I know many) who think the margins are even finer than that - and was also talking about the gross margin on the car itself (which will, on average, be quite a bit higher than 3%), not the entire business.

I don't disagree - hence why I said I'd accept a reasonable (i.e. passing-on-costs only) surcharge being introduced if I only brought up the CC payment after a price had been negotiated. I feel that bringing it up earlier would just result in the dealership trying to use it as leverage and muddy the negotiation - but YMMV of course.

This is not a car buying forum and I want to keep the example simple, otherwise my post would have to be very complex. Remember any loss in gross margin translate directly to the bottom line. Of course, there are lots of tricks dealers use and if you are not careful you lose $ in the transaction.

There are lots of industry where I think a surcharge over and above the fee is plain rude, especially airlines and hotels. Whilst in some other industry I feel it is acceptable if the surcharge reflects the actual merchant fee.

 

[drron]

No surcharges in Jordan or Turkey but have had the Amex knocked back because"of communications problems with amex" without even the pretence of trying the card.Hotels,restaurants have been the problem.

 

[davestan]

Just got a text from Vodafone saying that from July 25 surcharge using Amex will increase from 1%+GST to 2.15%+GST. Seems pretty outrageous to me - not sure who to be p**sed off with more Amex or Vodafone!

 

[straitman]

Seems to me like they are having a race for the bottom. (Amex & Vodaphone)

 

[wafliron]

This is not a car buying forum and I want to keep the example simple, otherwise my post would have to be very complex. Remember any loss in gross margin translate directly to the bottom line. Of course, there are lots of tricks dealers use and if you are not careful you lose $ in the transaction.

Fair enough - a conversation for another time and place (thread)

 

[trippin_the_rift]

A business that relies on 2% margin isn't a good business.

I can walk into any business and increase their margins by 3-5% after a week without screwing the customers or staff.

Wouldn't it be ironic if I charged a surcharge on my fees....

 

[greenfrog86]

Went to a restaurant the other night with a friend who is also an Amex points junkie... The place had Amex signs all over the door and presented the bill in an Amex wallet, however surcharge all card payments by adding $1.20 to the bill...

This makes no sense at all to me and it annoyed me so much I gave the feedback to Amex - no confidence they'll actually be able to do anything, but if I was them I'd be pulling all the merchandise with their logo as the place is hardly welcoming to cardmembers

 

[simonsyd]

Went to a restaurant the other night with a friend who is also an Amex points junkie... The place had Amex signs all over the door and presented the bill in an Amex wallet, however surcharge all card payments by adding $1.20 to the bill...This makes no sense at all to me and it annoyed me so much I gave the feedback to Amex - no confidence they'll actually be able to do anything, but if I was them I'd be pulling all the merchandise with their logo as the place is hardly welcoming to cardmembers

Twice in the last year I have eaten in establishments advertising Amex and had bill presented in Amex wallet only to present my card and be told "sorry we don't accept Amex" . One was close to home in SYD and one in London. Cracked the sh!ts at both places, not acceptable. Feedback sent to Amex for the Sydney case.

 

[k3nnis]

This happened to me in a chinese restaurant. I cracked it and told the waiter your wallet has an AMEX logo on it??? He couldn't reply! Speechless and just smiled it off! So I have to pay with my Westpac Altitude Plat Mastercard...

Twice in the last year I have eaten in establishments advertising Amex and had bill presented in Amex wallet only to present my card and be told "sorry we don't accept Amex" . One was close to home in SYD and one in London. Cracked the sh!ts at both places, not acceptable. Feedback sent to Amex for the Sydney case.

 

[sparoz]

A business that relies on 2% margin isn't a good business.

I can walk into any business and increase their margins by 3-5% after a week without screwing the customers or staff.

Wouldn't it be ironic if I charged a surcharge on my fees....

If you are a business consultant, you must be one of those who over promise just to get the job. Unfortunately I have naively hired consultants like that and had cost me plenty for believing their sales pitch.

I can increase the margin of many business by 10% easily whilst increasing their sales. However, I don't try to claim I can go into any industry and able to do that.

Your comment showed that you are either, naive, overconfident or arrogant.

It won't be ironic for you to charge a surcharge for your fees either, because that would be exactly what you will be preaching to increase on margin.

 

[leemin]

This happened to me in a chinese restaurant. I cracked it and told the waiter your wallet has an AMEX logo on it??? He couldn't reply! Speechless and just smiled it off! So I have to pay with my Westpac Altitude Plat Mastercard...

Same thing happened to me at a Taco Bill in a suburb of Melbourne. Sent info through to AMEX that night after a fairly blunt discussion with the (franschisee?)/manager about his use of AMEX bill books.

It's an issue that really p*sses me off. Companies like AMEX / Visa / Coke / Schweppes etc. don't give cafe's and restaurants merchandise out of the goodness of their hearts. Not only are they misleading customers IMO, they ultimately cost the supplier whom passes those costs onto other businesses.

I wonder what would happen if one was to inform such a restaurant that "if you're not in a position to accept payment using the card for which you display the acceptance logo and paraphernalia prior to purchase, I am not in a position to make payment"... Would be interesting to see the response. I don't think I'd be game enough to actually try it though

 

[sparoz]

Went to a Supper Inn at Melbourne (great food by the way) - and surprisingly no surcharge.

 

[ChrisFlyer]

I wonder what would happen if one was to inform such a restaurant that "if you're not in a position to accept payment using the card for which you display the acceptance logo and paraphernalia prior to purchase, I am not in a position to make payment"... Would be interesting to see the response. I don't think I'd be game enough to actually try it though

One could argue that it would amount to "engaging in conduct that is misleading or deceptive", in contradiction to Section 52 of the Trade Practices Act 1974 - as they were pretending to accept payment methods that they were unable to process, and only informing you of the situation after you had already entered into a transaction with the merchant. As such, you would be under no obligation to pay using another method if the restaurant had advised prior to the transaction (in this case, dining on an 'eat now, pay later' system as most restaurants support) that American Express cards were welcome (either verbally or visually through the 'cards welcome' decals or logos). You would however be obliged to supply your name and contact information in such a case, and you could invite the restaurant owner to contact you when they were ready to process your payment (either once they had found their imprinter to send a manual voucher to Amex, or once their EFTPOS terminal had been correctly updated to process Amex payments).

I've made the threat once before, and when challenged for another card, I pulled two more out - both were Amex cards also... turns out the business owner 'happened' to know that the shop next door (which seemed to be owned by the same family/group) had a mobile terminal that supported Amex, and processed the payment that way... he wasn't going to get paid otherwise! The business owner next door didn't seem too concerned by it - his body languaged implied that it wasn't the first time this had happened.

If a business shows the logo, I expect to be able to use the card. If no logos are displayed (or only Visa & MC logos are visible), I always ask first and am prepared to walk unless there is no reasonable alternative available. I'm the argumentative type though and am pretty thick-skinned, so those who are more shy or introverted may be more inclined to just pay with another card (which also wouldn't be a bad idea if you're on a date haha!). As I earn 3x the number of points on my Amex when compared to my MasterCard, MasterCard is not an option if they have advertised Amex acceptance

EDIT: It could also be in violation of Section 53 (D) of the same Act:

A corporation shall not, in trade or commerce, in connexion with the supply or possible supply of goods or services or in connexion with the promotion by any means of the supply or use of goods or services-
(d) represent that the corporation has a sponsorship, approval or affiliation it does not have;

NEWER EDIT: Was just buying some advertising on Facebook for my business, and only Visa/MC are accepted for $AUD transactions... however, if you change the currency to $USD, both Amex and Discover (Diners) become available - you just price your ads in $USD instead.

 

[JohnK]

SYD Tax and Duty Free no surcharge when I purchased tobacco the other day. Was this a mistake or have they genuinely removed the surcharge for Amex?

Same experience about 2 weeks ago ... So does appear to have been removed (until it comes back again!!)

Used SYD First Tax and Duty Free recently and was surcharged on both the outbound and inbound purchases.

Perhaps some staff do not include the surcharge....

 

[farstar]

Used SYD First Tax and Duty Free recently and was surcharged on both the outbound and inbound purchases.

Perhaps some staff do not include the surcharge....

If you order online they don't surcharge.

 

[JohnK]

If you order online they don't surcharge.

Unfortunately the government does not allow the sale of tobacco online. Hasn't for a few years.