Argh! I've joined Velocity! Am I wasting my time?

[crazydave98]

Totally wrong yet again bravoecho1 - like I said, just another wild accusation to add to your tally.

When I look at an airline, I am not too concerned about the "bells and whistles". Whats concerns me is the line training for aircrew and maintenance of the aircraft. Referring to specifics, when an airline can take a 24 year old with 800 hours in a C172 mustering cattle, get him to pay for his 737 conversion and then put him on line in the right seat, my concerns do get raised.

The minimum requirement for us to consider a pilot is 1500 hours of which 500 must be in command of a multi-engine aircraft (your C172 has only 1 engine), along with an instrument rating and ATPL. We have had exactly 2 exceptions to this - these were from guys who were in command of complex single engined turbine aircraft such as the Cessna Caravan (which trust me would never be used for cattle mustering). I travel in the jump seat of our aircraft almost weekly and I always ask the pilots what they did before. Typically the guy in the right hand seat (i.e. first officer) has come from a regional airline flying in the left hand seat (captain) of twin-turbine types, or has returned to Australia after flying in the left hand seat of a jet of an international airline.

On a final note, I would like to say that your personal attack is not in keeping with the spirit of this board. If I got personal like your post and discredited your comments, I could make the assumption that the person involved in setting up the Velocity program and airline lounge wouldn't know a great deal about scheduling, line maintenance and aircrew standards, but I won't .

Bravoecho1, I regarded your posts as slanderous attacks on a company of which I am very proud to be associated, so please excuse me if I took those as personal. What is your motivation for trying to spread lies about Virgin Blue? One could read your comments as trying to pass yourself as some sort of well-connected expert in running an airline for the purposes of impressing forum members. Feel absolutely free to try to discredit me - unfortunately I have the facts at my disposal. And as well as being involved in setting up Velocity, I work daily with the heads of scheduling, maintenance and aircrew. It took me a 30 second phone call with our chief pilot to get the information above.

Just one other thing I would like to clear up.

Its keeping the airline running at a profitable level whilst adhering to the regulatory safety standards is where airlines come undone. As we have seen in the past, DJ has been under the pump financially.

Wrong again. Virgin Blue has been profitable every year after its first financial year (which was mostly spending money setting up and with very little revenue-generating flying done). In fact Virgin Blue's worst ever profit margin (that's profit divided by revenue - a shorthand measure of profitability) in five years of existinance was better than Qantas' best in 12 years - I gave up counting after 12. We have never been "under the pump financially". And what another fine example of innuendo and slurring by bravoecho1, implying that because we are supposedly "under the pump financially" that we must have trouble adhering to regulatory safety standards. Since we're more profitable than Qantas, I guess that means we have a lot less trouble than them in meeting these standards? Sadly not - Qantas, like Jetstar and ourselves all put safety first.

cheers

CrazyDave

 

[bravoecho1]

Let me start this post with a comment which I think you are missing:

I do NOT want DJ to fail

The reasons are as follows:

1. I have friends and family working for/with the airline. DJ's downfall means they suffer
2. Keeping up the competition - no doubt that if DJ never existed and AN failed, then we would all be paying rediculous fares. This was evident when OzJet started up and we were able to purchase D fares on QF domestically.
3. Genuine interest - I genuinely want to see DJ do well. No one likes to see some one fail if they are willing to give it a try. With the advent of DJ, the number of Australian's travelling has increased. Over time this leads to an improvement in facilities, which in theory makes travelling a lot easier (I said in theory - not always the case)

Typically the guy in the right hand seat (i.e. first officer) has come from a regional airline flying in the left hand seat (captain) of twin-turbine types, or has returned to Australia after flying in the left hand seat of a jet of an international airline.

The comments regarding the experience levels are coming from the instructors that work for the company(I don't want to name them but you should know who they are) DJ hires to endorse the crew. They have raised these concerns with me a number of times and there are other examples.

Bravoecho1, I regarded your posts as slanderous attacks on a company of which I am very proud to be associated, so please excuse me if I took those as personal. What is your motivation for trying to spread lies about Virgin Blue? One could read your comments as trying to pass yourself as some sort of well-connected expert in running an airline for the purposes of impressing forum members. Feel absolutely free to try to discredit me - unfortunately I have the facts at my disposal. And as well as being involved in setting up Velocity, I work daily with the heads of scheduling, maintenance and aircrew. It took me a 30 second phone call with our chief pilot to get the information above.

Dave, in no way am I trying to slander Virgin and have never tried to portray myself as a well connected expert. I have been a member of AFF and FT for many years and have never attempted nor been accused of being one. Just because you are proud of your association and consider it personal, does not mean you can take the liberty to attack other posters!! All comments that I am making have been made by those working for/with the company. They enjoy working for the company and they, like me, would like to see the company do well. They have both a personal and financial interest in the company and they are frustrated that with the massive potential of the company, issues like that I have raised are holding it back.

Wrong again. Virgin Blue has been profitable every year after its first financial year (which was mostly spending money setting up and with very little revenue-generating flying done). In fact Virgin Blue's worst ever profit margin (that's profit divided by revenue - a shorthand measure of profitability) in five years of existinance was better than Qantas' best in 12 years - I gave up counting after 12. We have never been "under the pump financially". And what another fine example of innuendo and slurring by bravoecho1, implying that because we are supposedly "under the pump financially" that we must have trouble adhering to regulatory safety standards. Since we're more profitable than Qantas, I guess that means we have a lot less trouble than them in meeting these standards? Sadly not - Qantas, like Jetstar and ourselves all put safety first.

Dave, you are confusing two issues that I raised. The first was that it is easy to start an airline but hard to be profitable and maintain standards in a general sense. NEVER did I say that DJ had problems adhering to safety standards.

The second issue was that DJ has had to revise down their earnings estimates. The market was not happy with that and hence they were "under the pump" (eg. under pressure) to improve their EPS (that's NPAT divided by the number of shares). Once again, NEVER did I say that DJ were not profitable.

In summing up on what will be my final post on this thread, I have always stated that I do not have a vendetta against DJ and would like to see it do well.

I have made comments previously regarding past experiences, however by no means do I hold anything against the company. Every corporation in the country has their respective problems and the issues that I have raised are ones that I am aware of. If I knew of similar problems with QF, then I would be more than happy to post those as well.

Anytime that I create or reply to a post, it is always in good spirits and never personal.

Admin, can we lock this thread and move on. There are better things to talk about on a Friday - like HP's!!!

 

[crazydave98]

The comments regarding the experience levels are coming from the instructors that work for the company(I don't want to name them but you should know who they are) DJ hires to endorse the crew.

bravoecho1, why not just concede that you are wrong on this issue? You said that we have taken people with only 800hrs flying mustering single engined aircraft and put them straight into our jets. That's just plain wrong - I could also call it a lie, heresay and slander that's damaging to our comany's reputation. Maybe you took some flippant comments a little too literally? I like how you refer to instructors in the plural to imply that it's common for a bunch of them to complain to you

They have raised these concerns with me a number of times and there are other examples.

If you want to give some specific names in a private message to me I will follow it up and post the results publicly. As I mentioned, my information came direct from Brian Kearney our Head of Flight Operations (aka Chief Pilot) and I will happily arrange for you to speak to him directly on this issue. Why not put your money where your mouth is?

Admin, can we lock this thread and move on.

You claim to have lots more "examples", won't name names or specifics and want to close the thread instead? Didn't your mum ever tell you not to start something you can't finish?

I greatly value these discussion boards for feedback on our product and competitor's products and our company - I regularly send links throughout the company up to and including the CEO. I respect every one's opinion and their right to hold that opinion no matter how much I may disagree with it. But there is a world of difference between airing an opinion and making wrong, sweeping allegations about safety, integrity etc. that impugne the reputation of that company and its people. I believe the best response is to get the allegations specific and out in the open (none of this hiding behind the vagueness of the claims or nameless contacts) and look at the facts.

cheers

CrazyDave

 

[bravoecho1]

Dave,

Don't you have anything else to do? Read my previous post- I have nothing against DJ nor you and am only repeating what has been told to me. The fact that you don't agree with what I have said is your right.

If you think I am going to publish their names in either a public or private forum without knowing who you are or what the information will be used for then you have another thing coming.

The topics discussed were in confidence and i'm sure they wouldn't appreciate it having their names released in a public domain. Without knowing my background how would you know who I talk to?

Jumping down my throat is not doing either you or your company any favours. I have nothing to gain by putting down DJ and as I have said before if I was privy to the same information on any other airline I would still have made the same comments about them.

For the record let me clarify one thing - I have NEVER made any allegations about Virgin's safety, integrity etc. Your ranting does not bother me, but when you try to put words in my mouth, then I take that seriously!

As you think this will only be finished until I agree that Virgin is a perfect company, then i'm afraid you will be left wanting.

 

[scibo10]

I too agree that Velocity definitely does have some great points, especially the any seat redemption, and variable points requirement which maximises getting a free seat at peak times, but I think Virgin do have to remember why they introduced Velocity, and more importantly, why they didn't introduce a frequent flyer scheme when they first started. When they first began, they wanted to base themselves as the cheap budget airline pitted against QF and AN, and there is no doubt that at that time, a frequent flyer scheme was not needed. However, with the demise of AN, DJ have been forced through the years to try to cater for the business traveller, in order to attract and retain business passengers, who both travel more frequently, and who are less price sensitive.
It seems that DJ are making some headway (and I would like to state that this is just my observation, I know no contacts at DJ and I admit I may well be wrong), however if DJ are seriously going to claw back business passengers from QF on a consistent basis, I think they need to introduce 3 things:
1. tiering of the Velocity scheme, to include status bonuses, complimentary access to "the lounge" and possibly VS and EK lounges etc
2. business class (or at the very least, premium economy class), for the opportunity for business travellers to upgrade, especially on the east to west coast/DWN flights and possibly their potential transpacific flights (I think DJ could really attract many business travellers from OOL if this is introduced, given JQ predominantly represents Qanats here) and finally
3. more lounges (especially in PER, CBR and OOL)
It is all well and good that TV screens on seat backs are getting rolled out, however I feel this will cater more to leisure travellers than business travellers. I sometimes get the feeling DJ lose sight of who they are aiming at, and as a result, them seem to try to please everyone, which is not really sustainable. I welcome all thoughts on this

Cheers

 

[Dalmien76]

What I was referring to was in house. Its all well and good to conduct as many market research reports as you like, HOWEVER when the the product is rolled out and a large portion of your staff (including a lot of the call centre - this is from two seperate team leaders) are not trained on the product, it does not lend itself to good service when they can't answer customer questions. Referring to specifics, examples of this would include the Velocity program and Web check-in facility.

Let me tell you how some of your information can be incorrect (especially the above). I know for a fact that the Team Leaders do get the opportunity to be trained on this information. The teams have what is called a Team Training Rep. That person is responsible for training up all staff on new products that are released (including Velocity, Web Check etc) The Team Leaders are required to also sit in on the training, but they rarely do. They are told by the Training Department that it is a requirement for them to do this as they at times will have to handle escalated calls from the guests. So, you should understand that sometimes the information that is being told to you can at times be only the side of the story from the Team Leaders as they want you to hear it. Everyone in the call centre (including the Team Leaders) are to attend the training given by their Team Training Rep. If they Team Leaders don't, then they are to blame if they don't know anything about the product.

As to how I know this, well I will let you draw that conclusion. But trust me, my information is very watertight.

The Team Leaders do a great job at the call centre, if they only found the time to attend the product briefs, then maybe they would know more about the products and services that are available. They are the only ones to blame when it comes to not knowing about the product, because it is definately rolled out, and there is no excuse for not knowing.

What I suggest is perhaps remember that when someone tells you something, it is one persons side of a story. Often people will tell you something making sure that it looks good for them rather than what the real situation is. We all do it. For example, If you have a run in with someone, you will tell your friend what happened making sure you make your self look good, that is human nature.

Perhaps remember the saying "there is always 2 sides to every story"

I don't think "crazydave" is having a go at you, but when you work for the company, you tend to have first hand information at your fingertips. By you receiving information from your friends or family isn't always going to be unbias, and you're hearing the story perhaps sixth in line. Ever heard of Chinese Whispers? Information is often distorted the more it gets down the line. It would almost be like Crazydave making statements or opinions about the company you work for by hearing things from friends or family who work in the company you work for.....(as an example)

And, if you read things from newspapers or hear things from the media, remember only one fourth of what they say is true.

Well, that is my rant.

Cheers.

 

[Yada Yada]

... if DJ are seriously going to claw back business passengers from QF on a consistent basis, I think they need to introduce 3 things:
1. tiering of the Velocity scheme, to include status bonuses, complimentary access to "the lounge" and possibly VS and EK lounges etc
2. business class (or at the very least, premium economy class), for the opportunity for business travellers to upgrade, especially on the east to west coast/DWN flights and possibly their potential transpacific flights (I think DJ could really attract many business travellers from OOL if this is introduced, given JQ predominantly represents Qanats here) and finally
3. more lounges (especially in PER, CBR and OOL)
It is all well and good that TV screens on seat backs are getting rolled out, however I feel this will cater more to leisure travellers than business travellers. I sometimes get the feeling DJ lose sight of who they are aiming at, and as a result, them seem to try to please everyone, which is not really sustainable. I welcome all thoughts on this

Thanks for your post, scibo10 - they are interesting points. These are things that I've thought about recently too.

I agree that more lounges would be great, and I expect that they will come. I am glad that the three airports I use the most already have lounges, and am hoping that a lounge at PER won't be too far away.

As for DJ having business class, my opinion is that they should not duplicate the QF model but do something different. I would like to see some 2+2 seating up front with more legroom, but that's about all I really want. The existing paid-for food/beverage service would be fine with me.

With regards to having a tiered system, I'm really in two minds about this. While the concept of receiving benefits for being a frequent flyer seems attractive, I'm not convinced that it actually works well in reality. I am QF Gold but just don't think it counts for much. I appreciate the QP access but the lounges are so crowded these days that it's hard to find a seat. My preference for forward cabin seating never gets fulfilled and I'm normally on a 767. Use of the business check-in counters is not that big a deal either.

With Virgin Blue, I can pay for a fare that guarantees me forward cabin seating or an exit row and access to the lounge. With online check-in I do not have to queue anywhere. I'd hate to see a tiered system introduced that actually removed these features. I'm quite happy with user-pays rather than a system where you hope to get benefits but have no real guarantee of getting them because others may be ahead of you in terms of status, or the system is simply corrupted by staff who give preference to friends or colleagues.

 

[Warks]

Methinks this got a little OT for a while there.

 

[scibo10]

Yada Yada, thanks for replying to my post.
I agree with you on almost all of your points.
Firstly, I do think that PER will be the next cab off the rank, then possibly CBR (although I think OOL will be more beneficial for them)
Yes, I do think that some innovative Virgin flare is needed for an elite cabin (maybe complimentary Foxtel, possibly complimentary snack/meal (like first class on US domesic flights), innovative seating adopting the latest technology in this area, meal on demand for longer flights and I'm sure there are other things.....

I do understand your points of view with regards to tiering, however 2 points I think of here. In recent times, there has been very little between the prices of QF and DJ on their peak hour flights (most frequented by business) compared to a number of years ago, and as such, I still feel that plats and even most golds would sway towards QF when there is no or even little price difference.

Also, with the upgrade of "the lounge" this may possibly even out (although by no means anywhere near 50/50) the numbers going to the QC and the DJ lounge. In recent years QCs have been packed to the rim simply because there has been no choice. But you're right about many a point here. Business class check-in has been faster for me about 60% of the time, and yes, slower for me about 30% of the time. (the other 10%, there was no difference).

I can't see how a person can pay for a seat if seat benefits are adopted for the higher status either. The only thing I can think of is that higher status members pay say $10 or $20 for the privilege, depending on their level, rather than $30, although it would require early reservation, which is not ideal for business travel. Yes, QF staff regularly get the business class seats on QF, and you don't need to have any inside knoweldge on this. People see it with their own eyes.

Some interesting thoughts, but I do feel that at the very least, 2x2 seating as Yada Yada suggested is needed for the longer flights.

 

[oz_mark]

I agree that more lounges would be great, and I expect that they will come. I am glad that the three airports I use the most already have lounges, and am hoping that a lounge at PER won't be too far away.

But where would they put the lounge at PER? According to a recent press release the area that was the Ansett Golden Wing has been leased to Alliance Airlines.

 

[Yada Yada]

But where would they put the lounge at PER? According to a recent press release the area that was the Ansett Golden Wing has been leased to Alliance Airlines.

Good point. I hope they can find some space.

 

[Dalmien76]

I hope the airlines don't share your opinion. If 20% of my flights were cancelled my business and personal life would be severely disrupted. Thankfully in over 100 flights this year I have had only 1 cancellation. The year before none.

You're looking at the figures as being 1 in 5 flights are cancelled, I was simply saying that if only 1 of his flights were cancelled, then that is better than all of them being effected by cancellation or delays. so the odds were pretty good for him I say.

 

[status level flint]

Virgin definitely wins on the cabin crew friendliness and cabin crew tidiness.:mrgreen:

Not in my experience. (perhaps this is because I enjoy being treated as an adult). On found, on some DJ flights (to be fair, not all of them), that the amount of "fake fun" to be quite wearing.

 

[Yada Yada]

Not in my experience. (perhaps this is because I enjoy being treated as an adult). On found, on some DJ flights (to be fair, not all of them), that the amount of "fake fun" to be quite wearing.

I haven't seen it for some time now, and am guessing that it's been "removed".

However as I've mentioned around here previously, one should not mistake the snotty crew behaviour of another airline as being a sign of professionalism.

BTW, welcome to AFF!

 

[jakeseven7]

Not in my experience. (perhaps this is because I enjoy being treated as an adult). On found, on some DJ flights (to be fair, not all of them), that the amount of "fake fun" to be quite wearing.

I think this is is still a hangover from the days when DJ used to target solely leisure/price concious customers, now Jetstar has yanked that rug from under them they have been forced to become more professional in an attempt to be more attractive to FF's and business pax.

My last DJ flight, admittedly 6 months ago, the FA tried to make the pax play hangman and was greeted with silence (it was a Mel-Syd 4pm service so probably not the best time to try it). I have heard that around here they are stopping this kind of thing due to complaints.

Although, a colleague was on a flight the other weekend and the FA tried to get the cabin to sing Happy Bday to another FA, and got snakey when about 2 pax joined in....