Article: Qantas Points “The Envy of the World”? Absolutely Not!

[levelnine]

I’ve mentioned several times before that in paper QF seems to defy all the rules of competition. Pre covid passenger would pay more for a QF single-daily flight with angled skybeds or droopy skybed2s rather than take anyone of Cathay’s or Singapore’s four or five-times daily flights with guaranteed flat beds. The golden handcuffs are the only reason I can think of as the driver.

I think that's an important point, but it can't possibly be the whole reason. Hence why I think it requires a deeper dive.

There are thousands of Bronze and Silver members who obsessively chase QFF points. Have a look at QFF points collectors on Facebook. That niche group alone has 50K members and is flooded with posts of Bronze members trying to maximise collecting opportunities.

And to the extent it is correct, it simply raises further questions. Why haven't others aggressively entered the lounge space? In the United States, the best airline lounges are run by the banks (eg Amex and now Capital One).

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think that's an important point, but it can't possibly be the whole reason. Hence why I think it requires a deeper dive.

There are thousands of Bronze and Silver members who obsessively chase QFF points. Have a look at QFF points collectors on Facebook. That niche group alone has 50K members and is flooded with posts of Bronze members trying to maximise collecting opportunities.

And to the extent it is correct, it simply raises further questions. Why haven't others aggressively entered the lounge space? In the United States, the best airline lounges are run by the banks (eg Amex and now Capital One).

Sure, but those bronze members chasing points… for most they’re going to find their economy class seats, or points planes, or jetstar business class, for the price they’re happy with.

I dunno… I’m not on facebook… are they all actually saving for premium awards?

 

[GlennT]

As well as never getting around to getting a partner award ticketed (Cathay Pacific in my case) they are quick to deduct the requisite points (149,800 for me) and never return them to one's account. I have been chasing these points up for 9 months, quoting the PNR, which even Cathay had at the time, but Qantas can't find it!
Ther's a limit to how long and how often I can devote to staying on hold waiiting to speak to someone who may not be capable of helping, and am on the verge of writing those points off to preserve my sanity.

 

[eminere]

Qantas Points “The Envy of the World”? Absolutely Not! is an article written by AFF editorial staff:

Qantas Points "The Envy of the World"? Absolutely Not, Mr Joyce!

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce recently told a room full of business leaders and journalists in Perth that the airline's frequent flyer scheme and points "are the

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

You can leave a comment or discuss this topic below.

Thank you AFF team for telling it like it is.

 

[Jo145]

This article has been very informative for me (not a true FF at the moment but have a lot of points to use). My biggest frustration is being unable to use a flight credit - uselessly renamed 'Qantas Pass'.

On the points booking thread - Wondering if someone could help/clarify something for me please: I've booked points JFK-LHR in Feb 2023. Called American Airlines and they gave me the flight record locator # but when I log into my AAdvantage profile the flight does not appear. Does this mean it hasn't been ticketed yet and that I should follow up with AA? Or should I sit tight and wait a while given that it's 6 months until I fly? Any advice would be really appreciated.

 

[Anna]

I've booked points JFK-LHR in Feb 2023. Called American Airlines and they gave me the flight record locator # but when I log into my AAdvantage profile the flight does not appear.

Did you use QFF points or AA points to make the booking? If you used QFF points, can you see the booking on your QFF profile? (I'm confused why you would expect to see a booking made with your QFF number appearing under your AA number? If that's what you're expecting).

 

[levelnine]

Sure, but those bronze members chasing points… for most they’re going to find their economy class seats, or points planes, or jetstar business class, for the price they’re happy with.

I dunno… I’m not on facebook… are they all actually saving for premium awards?

A lot of them are saving for premium redemptions to Europe and the illusive OWA, which makes me think they have failed to realise the new reality of reward availability.

But also if you are saving for economy redemptions, then you are often not acting in your own self-interest, which is why I want a deeper dive.

A pretty standard economy class redemption on Qantas puts the value of a point at roughly 1c. Eg take a typical sale MEL-SYD fare for $119 (what I currently see on qantas.com). Otherwise it is 8K points + $40, which puts the value at exactly 1c per point.

If you convert your WW points to QFF, you are redeeming at 1c per point. 2000 WW = $10 off shop or 1,000 QFF.

Now everyone on this group of tens of thousands converts WW to QF. But why would you convert your WW points to QF if this is how you use points? Far better to pocket the $10 off your shop and have complete flexibility as to when and with whom you fly.

Even if you can redeem economy for 1.5c per point, the $10 off shop is arguably better value because you can just fly another airline for less if Qantas fares are too high. And if fares across all carriers are high, there isn't likely to be any award availability so points rarely help in that situation.

 

[justin23]

Sure, but those bronze members chasing points… for most they’re going to find their economy class seats, or points planes, or jetstar business class, for the price they’re happy with.

I dunno… I’m not on facebook… are they all actually saving for premium awards?

Oh yes they certainly are! There are a few genuine frequent flyers who fly and have status as wellm but most are people getting upset that they can't take there once in a lifetime trip to Europe in J or F. Because people push these flights are best value (which they are), they don't want to "waste point on economy fares. They also don't like being told they are the bottom of the queue because they don't fly much, they see their points and ability to earn points as valuable as a frequent flyer who spends money with the airline.
I'll be surprised if an enhancement along these lines doesn't happen soon. J and F cost a lot more points, now to counter that (this bit is unlikely), QFF with status get discounts on award flights. the last enhancement kind of did that, increased premium cabins a bit.

Why haven't others aggressively entered the lounge space?

I wonder if a third party could offer a lounge that can be paid for by points. Theres a lot of lounge access chasing as well wil the Bronze points collectors on FB.

 

[Berlin]

Now- I am the first one to admit that I'm super frustrated with award availability on QFF as there is virtually NOTHING ever available and like many of us on this forum, cattle class and toaster ovens don't count. And even more frustrating I find the usual lies from Qantas about "making more seats available" which is just the usual spin we hear from them.

However, just a few thoughts to put things into perspective- not to try and excuse Qantas, not at all. But they're not the big outlier from what I can see:

• Try to find any Business class (or, ha, First!) class redemption seats to interesting destinations on Krisflyer. Same thing as on Qantas and I hear some others are even worse.
• In line with the above, this seems to be a bit of an industry thing at the moment. I suspect this is still the aftermath of Covid, limited capacity and staff combined with penned up demand (and, for many lucky people, unspent 'holiday money' and/ or miles) and so on. Why would any airline throw our award capacity if planes are packed to the rafters and enough pax are more than happy to pay outright? Let's hope that things will get back to normal over the next year or two which might actually solve part of these issues
• Same as the above could be said about service levels, call centre quality, inflight catering and so on. I've recently posted a shocking image of my Business class "cheese platter" on Singapore Airlines on a different thread here and Qantas suddenly sits quite comfortably there with the usual food offerings. In other words, in the current market, many airlines seem to just "get away with it". Same with help from the call centre- SQ certainly does not necessarily shine there and let's not even talk about the likes of LH or similar. If you get through to Hobart, Qantas is probably the best of the lot.
• And finally, the majority of everyday consumers loves $10 bucks off their next supermarket shop over anything remotely to do with premium reward space, as frustrating as it is. Heck, a useless program like Flybuys wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for this simple fact. Yes, it p%$$es me off big time and this seems to be a common sentiment on here. But the average punter seems to find a new Weber grill HIGHLY aspirational for some odd reason.

 

[Human]

Like many others, I focussed on Qantas points during 2020 and 2021 because I considered them to be a "safe haven" at a time when Virgin was struggling and overseas travel was largely off the agenda. Needless to say, I regret that now. I've been able to travel overseas quite extensively since the border has opened, but only because I had large stashes of points in other programmes (KrisFlyer, Asia Miles) where redemptions were easier to come by: if I'd had to rely on my Qantas points, I'd never have been able to leave the country!

 

[encryptededdy]

I'm actually going to defend Qantas a little bit here: I think the award availability is a result of a perfect storm right now of;

• Post-COVID many people have more points balances than usual
• Reduced schedules
• More people travelling
• More people wanting to travel in a premium class than pre-pandemic (e.g., but also anecdotally)
  • Most likely resulting in a reduction in last-minute releases of award space
• Cancellation/change fee waivers

Call me naive, but I think the situation will improve over time. I also (unless someone has information to the contrary) doubt Qantas has released meaningfully less award seats vs. previous years on a per-flight basis. Of course, there's less flights so in terms of absolute numbers it is probably less.

What actually is problematic in my opinion is the continuing ticketing/flight change issues with award tickets, especially complex OWAs. The limited availability I can understand, but what really gets me is I have to sweat every time I get a flight change email hoping that Qantas will issue a new e-ticket in time.

I'm not blaming the flight changes themselves (and they're often partners making the changes anyway), but in no world should a simple flight change by a partner cause one to lose their entire itinerary because Qantas didn't re-ticket in time.

 

[Kacymru]

This article was spot on.
I‘ve been a loyal Qantas customer for over a decade; multiple points credit cards, always flown Qantas when available.

Prior to Covid, never had a problem booking rewards flights all over the world and domestically, post Covid: can’t even get a classic reward economy to the UK 300 days out

Like many people on this forum, I am prolific at researching flights and know all the tricks as I used to book travel as a job.
That being said, you don’t have to be an expert to see that Qantas are taking the absolute piss out of us: no reward flights available to locations we want/ need to go to, terrible customer service, long wait times, multiple changes and cancellations - this has been my personal experience over the last 12 months with Qantas and in particularly over the last 3 months.

I am aching for them to have some decent competition in the market - I would switch in a heartbeat!

Hats off to the article writer and to the other people on this forum who provide feedback and lively debate.

 

[mviy]

In around March this year I was prepared to book a return classic flight reward in J/F to LHR but it was of course already way too late even though I was willing to be flexible on dates in the period I needed to fly and whether I went via PER/SIN. J prices were ridiculous so I booked flex Y during the DSC promo and put in for upgrades as late as at the gate. Upgrades failed both ways as SG.

Now I have even more points and WP status for the next trip to LHR (provided that is before next membership year ends or I retain status another way). I spoke to others on the flight who had also tried for an upgrade and like me their points balances will have gone up, so there’s not likely to be less demand for upgrades at a similar time next year, but rather if anything more.

 

[mviy]

‘Thousands’ of points only planes?

The big problem I have with those is that for them to provide value you need to get a classic reward seat both ways whereas the points plane is only getting it for you one way and probably at a time points seats have already long gone for the other direction flying say 2-4 weeks later/earlier.

 

[ozflier]

I have substantial points still remaining with the United Mileage Plus program .
I have not looked at buying award seats on Singapore Airlines but most days between october 2022 and march next year there are business class seats SYD/MEL to LAX/SFO ( and taxes are round USD 100) !
I just don't trust Qantas to look after me and maintain the value of my points!

 

[Guvner]

Surely there have not been thousands of these "points flights". I'm assuming they meant seats.
As for "Millions of reward seats available". That claim has been made a number of times in different interviews.
I'd like to see the actual figures. The cynic in me suggests that's a complete fallacy. The back of the envelope math does not even add up if you consider # of flights per day, # of seats per flight, % of reward fare buckets, duration of reward availability window etc.

 

[Berlin]

I'd like to see the actual figures. The cynic in me suggests that's a complete fallacy. The back of the envelope math does not even add up if you consider # of flights per day, # of seats per flight, % of reward fare buckets, duration of reward availability window etc.

Complete lies I'd strongly suspect, hence a typical Qantas. Similar to the "call centre wait times have been reduced significantly" which does not help in the slightest bit if the useless person on the other end won't help you. Or, my all time favourite, those "business suites" that don't even have a door, eyes roll...

 

[TheInsider]

Surely there have not been thousands of these "points flights". I'm assuming they meant seats.
As for "Millions of reward seats available". That claim has been made a number of times in different interviews.
I'd like to see the actual figures. The cynic in me suggests that's a complete fallacy. The back of the envelope math does not even add up if you consider # of flights per day, # of seats per flight, % of reward fare buckets, duration of reward availability window etc.

Just because they are not available on an International flight, doesn't mean they are not available on a SYD-MEL flight or somewhere domestically.

Lets for argument sake say there are 30 SYD-MEL flights daily and there are 15 reward seats available on each flight.
That's 3,150 per week and then 163,800 seats per year. That's just for one route.

 

[Guvner]

Just because they are not available on an International flight, doesn't mean they are not available on a SYD-MEL flight or somewhere domestically.

Lets for argument sake say there are 30 SYD-MEL flights daily and there are 15 reward seats available on each flight.
That's 3,150 per week and then 163,800 seats per year. That's just for one route.

I don't disagree with your premise, I'm saying I'm cynical unless/until I see the actual figures. "Millions" isn't even a quantifiable volume.

 

[coyote25]

Qantas aren’t lying the Qantas points system is the envy of many businesses. A steady revenue stream to purchase a virtual currency that you both control the value off and how it can and can’t be used.

There is a reason some FF schemes are worth money then some of the airlines core assets.

So from a perspective of talking to investors or other business the statement can be correct.

From perspective of users of the points it definitely is not, and eventually this ‘might’ impact the business perspective.

However you don’t here many companies not purchasing the Qantas virtual currency to use in their promotions to their customers (banks, energy companies, car rental, supermarkets etc).

Personally I’ve made the system work for me but it’s getting harder.

The other issues in this article after really shameful, if you find a reward, book it, and then lose it due to QF ticketing issues that should only happen maybe 1 out of 500,000 reward transactions and should be fixed by QANTAS at their time and cost not the PAX.