Ask The Pilot

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JB, in your sim sessions are you solo, have an instructor acting as FO, or have an FO who is being checked at the same time?

Normal crew...captain and FO. Sim instructor, or senior check captain sits in the back.

Normally the FO is also being checked, but sometimes (generally sickness) one of you will just be supporting. It's no easier, as the entire program is always done...and you're still assessed.
 
So with a four hour sim what do you do if you need to go to the toilet? Is there one in the sim?

Can you call the FA for a coffee? Although I can imagine those testing you would see that as an opportune time to commence an emergency. :mrgreen:

And on this theme, are other staff, i.e. non flight deck involved in your sim testing?

It sound fascinating but I am sure it is damned hard work.
 
So with a four hour sim what do you do if you need to go to the toilet? Is there one in the sim?

Most sims have a logical break point, so it will all be frozen for a break somewhere around half way. Otherwise you make do. Toilet needs seem to be forgotten when the work load is high enough.....

And on this theme, are other staff, i.e. non flight deck involved in your sim testing? It sound fascinating but I am sure it is damned hard work.

There are maintenance staff in the building, but nobody else is directly involved. It is extremely hard work, and shirts are often dripping wet at the end of the exercise. A couple have been detailed at earlier points in this thread.
 
August/September is a 'blank line' for me, which means that I'll do ad hoc stuff. About the only thing I know for sure is that there's a licence renewal in the sim.

Ahh.. I'm on QF10 on the 29th August.. be good to say hello if you end up one of those legs!
 
The horrible times of day are normally reserved for those on course. They end up with all of their sims around those hours, so it's like being on night shift for a month. One off they are horrible.

Those "on course", are they pilots undergoing conversion courses? If so, what's behind the policy of running those over a 24hr roster?

If we were expected to undergo training, either on our simulator or other courses on shift there would be a revolt. As it is, 2 x 12hr dayshifts on the sim is bad enough. It wouldn't be so bad if the simulator was identical to what we actually operate. At least yours is...

Of course, doing training that late in the night can well emulate real life conditions if something goes awry.
 
As for 24hr operation of the simulator, it must be fun for those slotted in the hours of 0200 - 0600...

Since the real world for pilots includes such coughpy work hours I can't see it being a problem in the sim.

I think that managing sleep scheduling must be one of the hard parts of the job.
 
Since the real world for pilots includes such coughpy work hours I can't see it being a problem in the sim.

Sorry, but it is a huge problem for the sims. People doing courses can be scheduled so that they get into a routine of working at those hours. The line people could be in just about any zone, but they will not be at their best in the wee hours. Sims are both supposed to teach you something, and are also a renewal of your licence. Given that so much rides on these exercises, most of us would simply not turn up for an exercise if it were scheduled at such a time that fatigue is likely to affect performance..and that, in turn, would wreak havoc on the sim schedules.

I think that managing sleep scheduling must be one of the hard parts of the job.

It is, and people who do not fly constantly underestimate the impact.
 
they will not be at their best in the wee hours. Sims are both supposed to teach you something,

As a shift worker since 1981 I can vouch for this. It's pointless trying to learn things when you're supposed to be asleep. Some bright sparks where I work have suggested reading manuals, doing "projects" and so on to help us stay alert and to keep us gainfully employed.

And like that works a treat...

I like the ambos and fireries schedules where sleep is allowed during stale time. But, as I've found out on many occasion, if you nod off and get woken rudely by something happening, you're like you are punch drunk initially.

And sitting down the back, trying to stay awake as we approach LAX isn't pleasant for us, but we're not expected to be landing a 500t aircraft full of pax...

I'm nearly halfway through Richard's book and he touches on such things.
 
I like the ambos and fireries schedules where sleep is allowed during stale time. But, as I've found out on many occasion, if you nod off and get woken rudely by something happening, you're like you are punch drunk initially.

"Zlatko Glusica was the captain of an Air India Express [Flight 812] carrying 166 passengers from Dubai to Mangalore... As his Boeing 737 approached the city Mr. Glusica woke up from a nap in the coughpit and took over the controls. His co-pilot warned him repeatedly that he was coming in at the wrong angle and that he should pull up and try again. The last sound on the coughpit recorder was the co-pilot screaming that they didn't have any runway left. The plane overshot the landing and burst into flames. Only eight people survived. An investigation found that the captain was suffering from "sleep inertia."

The accident was a fatal reminder of the power of something prosaic that most of us typically don't give much thought: sleep. Yet it's a lesson that is habitually forgotten. Since that 2010 Air India flight, sleepy pilots have been at the center of several near-accidents, including two this year."

Decoding the Science of Sleep - WSJ.com
 
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For most of the history of aviation, both management and regulatory authorities have swept fatigue and sleep issues under the carpet. Even now, with a large amount of scientific evidence, new regulations are being drafted which have more to do with economics than they do with science.

Management will never need to admit to being part of a fatigue related incident, as all they have to do is write a rule that, more or less, says 'don't fly fatigued'. I expect a high proportion of pilot error accidents have had a large fatigue component.
 
For most of the history of aviation, both management and regulatory authorities have swept fatigue and sleep issues under the carpet. Even now, with a large amount of scientific evidence, new regulations are being drafted which have more to do with economics than they do with science.

Management will never need to admit to being part of a fatigue related incident, as all they have to do is write a rule that, more or less, says 'don't fly fatigued'. I expect a high proportion of pilot error accidents have had a large fatigue component.

To that extent, what would be a better way to manage flights, flight crew and pilots so that everyone can maintain an adequate (or better, optimal) level of health and well-being?

Do we need more crew (i.e. per flight, per out-station, etc. - this covers both flight deck and cabin attendants), longer "shore breaks" (i.e. more time between having to operate flights), established out-stations (more crew bases at destinations), or do particular timings of flights need to be outlawed?

It seems improving pilot or crew comfort on board is not the answer (as often alluded to by yourself that it is very difficult to get adequate rest on an aircraft for any length of time).

Do you think that this will demand much more expensive flights than current? I'm not saying whether this is bad or good, but rather if that is what it would take. After all, it wasn't very long ago (before deregulation ran rampant) that air travel still cost a decent whack (for example, $1500 - $2000 for an Economy return flight to South East Asia, and that's not the "worst" of it).
 
To that extent, what would be a better way to manage flights, flight crew and pilots so that everyone can maintain an adequate (or better, optimal) level of health and well-being?

Do we need more crew (i.e. per flight, per out-station, etc. - this covers both flight deck and cabin attendants), longer "shore breaks" (i.e. more time between having to operate flights), established out-stations (more crew bases at destinations), or do particular timings of flights need to be outlawed?

There have been a bunch of studies done. A very extensive one was done within Oz. The answer is not simple. You don't necessarily need more crew, and in fact you can sometimes have less. These studies have all generated fatigue management plans...but the problem is simply that the operators and regulators seem to be picking only those parts that allow working days to be lengthened. Quite simply, some days can be longer, but that's affected by starting time, number of sectors, what has been happening in previous days, and so on. What is at issue is the generation of arbitrary limits, that have no basis in science. For instance, after the '89 dispute, the domestics were allowed an 'exemption' that let them plan two pilot, multi sector days, out to 14 hours. They took no regard of any previous activity...but simply made it legal. This exemption still exists, and has had its coverage extended...

Longer slips don't necessarily help at all. In some cases they are a bad idea. An example....operating to NYC via LA, the slip in LA is 48 hours. It could be as short as 24, but even a slight delay will breach the current regs. But, people can always sleep on the first night in LA on the way through, but the second night is always difficult. In that case a relaxation of the rules works better. Long slips also have the negative effect of putting you into the local time zone, and given that most long haul departures are in the middle of the night, that's not necessarily good either.

It seems improving pilot or crew comfort on board is not the answer (as often alluded to by yourself that it is very difficult to get adequate rest on an aircraft for any length of time).
Whilst it is often difficult with a good crew rest, it is impossible if an adequate crew rest is not provided. A business class seat within the cabin is a recipe for a crew that will get no rest whatsoever.

Do you think that this will demand much more expensive flights than current? I'm not saying whether this is bad or good, but rather if that is what it would take. After all, it wasn't very long ago (before deregulation ran rampant) that air travel still cost a decent whack (for example, $1500 - $2000 for an Economy return flight to South East Asia, and that's not the "worst" of it).
And there lies the rub. I doubt that decent fatigue management will be expensive at all. It has swings and roundabouts. In some cases it allows reduced crew and shorter slips, but in others it is more restrictive. But, it is not one sided....
 
For most of the history of aviation, both management and regulatory authorities have swept fatigue and sleep issues under the carpet. Even now, with a large amount of scientific evidence, new regulations are being drafted which have more to do with economics than they do with science.

Management will never need to admit to being part of a fatigue related incident, as all they have to do is write a rule that, more or less, says 'don't fly fatigued'. I expect a high proportion of pilot error accidents have had a large fatigue component.


Are the new WH&S laws having an impact on fatigue management?
 
The key thing with writing a policy of don't work fatigued is what happens when the employee says they can't work due to fatigue. I used to work at a place where I just declared myself unfit for work, and then used sick leave. As a once or twice off that was ok. But more than that and questions then started to be asked about why you were fatigued. Obviously, going out on the booze all night would not be valid.

What are airlines like on this? Can you just ring in sick - by being unrested? What happens next? (understand if you can't say, but this is a general question not specific to any airline)

Are the new WH&S laws having an impact on fatigue management?

Are the laws new or are they just a renaming of existing laws.


Sent from the Throne
 
The key thing with writing a policy of don't work fatigued is what happens when the employee says they can't work due to fatigue. I used to work at a place where I just declared myself unfit for work, and then used sick leave. As a once or twice off that was ok. But more than that and questions then started to be asked about why you were fatigued. Obviously, going out on the booze all night would not be valid.

The biggest problem with fatigue is simply that the person who is fatigued is quite likely to be unaware of just how badly affected they are. And is the use sick leave reasonable, when it's quite possible that the cause of the fatigue is the rostering practice of the business concerned?

What are airlines like on this? Can you just ring in sick - by being unrested? What happens next? (understand if you can't say, but this is a general question not specific to any airline)

I don't know what other airlines do. Given the reputation of some, I doubt that such a call would be all that viable. On the other hand, I'm sure some would handle it professionally. QF's reaction is reasonable, but you must ensure that you say you are fatigued...

I very much doubt that the OH&S laws provide any protection....
 
Are the laws new or are they just a renaming of existing laws.

O/T - The WH&S laws are part of the harmonisation process of OH&S laws across Australia. They are model laws that have been implemented by some states and not others.
 
The biggest problem with fatigue is simply that the person who is fatigued is quite likely to be unaware of just how badly affected they are. And is the use sick leave reasonable, when it's quite possible that the cause of the fatigue is the rostering practice of the business concerned?



I don't know what other airlines do. Given the reputation of some, I doubt that such a call would be all that viable. On the other hand, I'm sure some would handle it professionally. QF's reaction is reasonable, but you must ensure that you say you are fatigued...

I very much doubt that the OH&S laws provide any protection....

I think the justification if sick leave in that other industry is that you weren't "fit for work", implication you're sick. I know they did a bit of work on development of a fatigue test, but it's almost impossible and nothing came from it.

I'm not sure about ohs legislation providing protection. If there was a hassle you'd be looking towards industrial law. If a fatigue statement is only there to demonstrate compliance but doesn't mean anything in practical terms. Then there could be a nasty court case involved. certainly not a fight to seek out.

O/T - The WH&S laws are part of the harmonisation process of OH&S laws across Australia. They are model laws that have been implemented by some states and not others.

Yep I sort of get that. In practical terms there probably aren't major changes. Although, I have experienced these national WHS idiots sticking they oar in where it's not needed and make a complete stuff up in doing so.
 
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In regards to drinking prior to piloting an aircraft, is there any sort of actual rules apart from simply have a BAC of 0. I have heard in the past that there is an 18 hour rule "18 hours bottle to the throttle", but I don't know if that's a hard and fast rule, or simply a suggestion which will ensure a pilot is under prior to flying.

Also is there any sort of drinking culture or tradition with airline staff? I know that when I've gone away on work trips with colleagues, having a drink or three with said colleagues at some nearby pubs was almost a mandatory part of being away, of course there was an unwritten rule which stated you did need to be sober the next morning as it wasn't going to go down well with the boss if you where not.
 
In regards to drinking prior to piloting an aircraft, is there any sort of actual rules apart from simply have a BAC of 0. I have heard in the past that there is an 18 hour rule "18 hours bottle to the throttle", but I don't know if that's a hard and fast rule, or simply a suggestion which will ensure a pilot is under prior to flying.

Also is there any sort of drinking culture or tradition with airline staff? I know that when I've gone away on work trips with colleagues, having a drink or three with said colleagues at some nearby pubs was almost a mandatory part of being away, of course there was an unwritten rule which stated you did need to be sober the next morning as it wasn't going to go down well with the boss if you where not.

Both Australia and the US have 8 hour rules.

In Australia BAC is 0.02 and 8 hours between last drinks and entering aircraft (CAR 1988 reg 256)

In US BAC is 0.04 and same 8 hours (FAR91.17)

Note that 0.02 is effectively 0.00, some with medical conditions can blow that level, as can some who use certain tooth pastes!
 

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