Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

JB on page 277 ( I think) there was discussion about kicking passengers off the flight and how the removal of bags makes this somewhat undesirable.

When a bag needs to be removed do you just put a request in and then sit and wait or are you able to get information about the estimated time of retrieval or similar and base your decision on that? I assume on aircraft with crates for all the baggage the rough location of bags in the plane is recorded.

In most cases the ground staff initiate the removal, as 99% of cases would involve people who have checked in, but not made it to the aircraft. I don't know where they actually go. There is normally an estimated time very quickly after the process starts.

 

[harvyk]

Whilst on the subject of removing people from flights, yesterday we had to board via stairs, and whilst down on the tarmac one of the other pax was using their mobile, and completely ignored the ground staffs instructions to hang up the phone (I don't think the pax paid any attention to the staff member until $1500 fine was mentioned). I don't know if the pax was off loaded or not (although I didn't see them come off the plane in MEL).

So in the event that blatantly ignoring instructions from ground crew doesn't get someone kicked off the flight there and then, is the information passed onto the pilots or CSM that there is a pax on board who may be some trouble? Is any such incidents passed onto the pilot even if the ground crew does not actually initiate removal of the pax?

 

[jb747]

Whilst on the subject of removing people from flights, yesterday we had to board via stairs, and whilst down on the tarmac one of the other pax was using their mobile, and completely ignored the ground staffs instructions to hang up the phone (I don't think the pax paid any attention to the staff member until $1500 fine was mentioned). I don't know if the pax was off loaded or not (although I didn't see them come off the plane in MEL).

So in the event that blatantly ignoring instructions from ground crew doesn't get someone kicked off the flight there and then, is the information passed onto the pilots or CSM that there is a pax on board who may be some trouble? Is any such incidents passed onto the pilot even if the ground crew does not actually initiate removal of the pax?

We don't hear about anything until it's passed beyond the minor stage. As a general rule, pilots are the last people you want to get involved, as we tend to see the world as black or white....negotiations don't happen.

But, as we've said so many times, that really is a rarity. The cabin crew are generally pretty adept at sorting out any issues, and the vast majority of the passengers don't want any anyway.

Be interesting to have seen the outcome if the passenger had been asked to wait whilst a CASA rep was called over.

 

[SenZubEanS]

Hadn't even made it to LA before I had a change to the pattern. Instead of bringing the 12 back, I'll now take the 94, arriving in Melbourne on Monday morning. Changes like that happen all the time, so you can never really plan much for a slip.

Had you put in a bid for that swap is MEL obviously saves you an extra flight back from SYD, or just good fortune?

 

[jb747]

Had you put in a bid for that swap is MEL obviously saves you an extra flight back from SYD, or just good fortune?

Bit of a strange week really. I was in the classroom on Wednesday, and planned to go to HK on Thursday. On Wednesday afternoon I was rung and offered the LA flight (93 & 12). That was a better deal, so I happily took that. The change to the 94 for the return also shortened my slip in LA by 24 hours, and was driven by somebody becoming ill. So, for a couple of days, people would be pulled forward by a day, until a replacement could get there, when it would go back to normal. That's one reason why airlines can't plan all slips to be short, as it means there is no coverage for any disruptions.

 

[QF029]

From memory your hours are based on duty time. Does this mean that apart from needed rest, the main implication of the length of slips for the airline is allowance / accommodation costs?

 

[jb747]

From memory your hours are based on duty time. Does this mean that apart from needed rest, the main implication of the length of slips for the airline is allowance / accommodation costs?

Roughly correct.

 

[mjt57]

JB, just wondering if you know Mac "Serge" Tucker, a former F18 driver who has a book out now, about his experiences. In the intro it talks about him flying everything from such and such to Jumbos, so I'm assuming that at one stage he flew for an airline.

The book is called "Fighter Pilot".

 

[day-heg]

JB, looks like you have a new destination from April... You ever flown into DXB before?

 

[jb747]

JB, just wondering if you know Mac "Serge" Tucker, a former F18 driver who has a book out now, about his experiences. In the intro it talks about him flying everything from such and such to Jumbos, so I'm assuming that at one stage he flew for an airline.

The book is called "Fighter Pilot".

Never heard of him, though his Facebook page contains one of my mates. From Facebook it would appear he was in QF for 3 or 4 years, as an SO on the 747 Classic, and FO on the 737.

 

[jb747]

JB, looks like you have a new destination from April... You ever flown into DXB before?

As usual, you know more than me about any plans. DXB is easy enough. It already appears in our sims as it's one of the diversion airports. My initial reaction, without having seen the details, is that it is the first positive thing I've seen for a while.

The devil will, as usual, be in the details, but I wonder how much of this is being driven by the ludicrous environment tax the UK has imposed that charges airlines based upon the length of their flight ex UK. The effect is a huge tax on flights to destinations like Singapore, and dramatically less to the middle east. This helps one group of airlines whilst dramatically hindering others.

 

[Must...Fly!]

As usual, you know more than me about any plans. DXB is easy enough. It already appears in our sims as it's one of the diversion airports.

Might need to trade the umbrella for a hat as well.

I'm sure it will be something different to fly in to a dedicated A380 terminal!

 

[day-heg]

I'm sure there will be many more questions about recently announced changes etc, but may I pose a question away from that topic...

How many crews does it take to keep an A380 operating normally? Obviously, you might head off to SIN, then hand over to another crew and have a slip. Meanwhile, that second crew will hand over to a third crew in London etc etc. 2 or three days later you pick up an aircraft and take it onto LHR etc. Add to that leave and sickness cover...

For the QF fleet of 11 (?) aircraft, how many Captains are there?

And I guess it's even more intensive for domestic ops where an aircraft is able to operate many more sectors in a day than a pilot, thus requiring 2 or three crews a day?

I understand if this might be somewhat commercially sensitive info and you can't answer, but it would be interesting to know.

Cheers,
D-H.

 

[jb747]

I'm sure there will be many more questions about recently announced changes etc, but may I pose a question away from that topic...

How many crews does it take to keep an A380 operating normally? Obviously, you might head off to SIN, then hand over to another crew and have a slip. Meanwhile, that second crew will hand over to a third crew in London etc etc. 2 or three days later you pick up an aircraft and take it onto LHR etc. Add to that leave and sickness cover...

For the QF fleet of 11 (?) aircraft, how many Captains are there?

And I guess it's even more intensive for domestic ops where an aircraft is able to operate many more sectors in a day than a pilot, thus requiring 2 or three crews a day? It's affected by lots of things that may not be obvious. For instance, ultra long haul ops burn up the pilots' available flight hours per month relatively quickly, compared to much less 'dense' short haul ops.

I understand if this might be somewhat commercially sensitive info and you can't answer, but it would be interesting to know.

6-7 crews per aircraft. Smaller fleets will have slightly more, due to the greater proportional overhang of management/training.

 

[mjt57]

Never heard of him, though his Facebook page contains one of my mates. From Facebook it would appear he was in QF for 3 or 4 years, as an SO on the 747 Classic, and FO on the 737.

OK, found him (looks a bit like John Wayne...)

Sounds like a character, too. It'd be interesting to see how his career and lifestyle parallels those guys who flew A4s in the Senior Service...

 

[harvyk]

I guess this is more an "Ask the ATC question" however...

When a pilot declares a mayday, what happens from an ATC prospective. Are all controllers advised at that point in time that there is a plane in distress? Is a manager / supervisor or extra controllers called over to assist, how does it work when transferring the plane from one frequency to another, I'd take it that the new controller would be advised well in advanced that they are about to take on a plane in distress.

Is there anything else which needs to happen when a mayday call come in? Also how much latitude is given to pilots after a mayday call, are they simply told "the sky is yours, tell us what you need" or are they still given some boundaries to fly within? (eg cleared to certain levels etc...)

Also what do other pilots do if they happen to be on the same frequency? For example if they are in a part of the flight themselves where they need to do something such as climb or descend, or they are nearing to landing. I'm guessing that ATC may put them into holding patterns or slow them down so they are not in the way but is there anything else ATC may instruct?

 

[markis10]

Deceleration of a Mayday invokes a number of things, firstly if the squawk code is used an alarm sounds in the radar centre alerting the senior controller that a plane with ultimate priority is under his care somewhere (this may have changed as I am not across the more modern system in use but I suspect it still applies). There is no difference in hand off, the plane will be marked with a marker indicating the state, and given the latitude to do what it needs to do while the controllers clear the airspace around it (usually working their tails off).

At the same time, a SAR distress phase is declared and the aircraft becomes the subject of a watch from the nearest SAR centre, while specialists are tasked with organising support as required, this includes mobilising aircraft for escort purposes or possible search and rescue activity. While I was in operations as a SAR rated controller we had a QF 767 crack a windscreen inbound from NZ approaching Sale on the way to MEL, the only thing we had to do an escort was a Caribou, nonetheless it was still mobilised for the short time it could escort the now much lower QF 767 at 10000 ft.

As a SAR MC (master controller), the best news you can get is when you hit the hotline to the RAAF and they confirm a P3 Orion Asset is available, although I suspect the Wedgetails would also come in handy these days. Having worked SYD-MEL radar for sometime I am still in awe at the work the Orions do, as I watched them go to 500AGL approaching Nowra on my morning shift, only to see the same plane climb back up to flight level 15 hours later for its cruise to SA when I came on board for my night shift, knowing full well a lot of that time they have been low and with only two engines turning and burning whilst on patrol. If your listening to ATC, from memory the P3s use Striker/ Shepherd or Mariner for callsigns depending on their Squadron.

 

[harvyk]

Thanks Markis,

Just out of interest, when clearing the airspace around the aircraft how is that done, eg could a plane receive and instruction to head into a completely different heading (which is not in the general direction they want to be going) for example, or is it more subtle than that? eg one aircraft is put into a holding pattern, another one instructed to slow down, another one instructed to speed up etc...

Also is an escort aircraft standard practice during an emergency or does it depend on the type of emergency and the likelihood of the aircraft actually making it to an airport?

 

[serfty]

...

The devil will, as usual, be in the details, but I wonder how much of this is being driven by the ludicrous environment tax the UK has imposed that charges airlines based upon the length of their flight ex UK. The effect is a huge tax on flights to destinations like Singapore, and dramatically less to the middle east. This helps one group of airlines whilst dramatically hindering others.

It will give one way to avoid/reduce said tax but only with stopovers at DXB. i.e. APD at £184 for Premium Economy LHR-xDXB-SYD is the same as for LHR-xSIN-SYD or LHR-SYD. (LHR-DXB is £130)

 

[markis10]

Thanks Markis,

Just out of interest, when clearing the airspace around the aircraft how is that done, eg could a plane receive and instruction to head into a completely different heading (which is not in the general direction they want to be going) for example, or is it more subtle than that? eg one aircraft is put into a holding pattern, another one instructed to slow down, another one instructed to speed up etc...

Also is an escort aircraft standard practice during an emergency or does it depend on the type of emergency and the likelihood of the aircraft actually making it to an airport?

When an aircraft needs some area to move, normally a block of airspace is assigned, effectively making a flying box that only one aircraft can be in, such as a clearance to diverge left and right of assigned track by x nautical miles (or degrees) or a block clearance of altitudes, such as FL330 to FL410 etc etc. Once the clearance is given the ATC will then workout whats required to keep the other aircraft clear, with lateral distance, vertical distance or timed distance used to achieve the separation, it will vary by situation. The easiest move in a lot of cases is to put aircraft into a holding pattern behind the affected aircraft, something like "two minute left hand pattern at FL390". Traffic in front or below is usually vectored clear of the aircraft in question.

In terms of an escort aircraft, it does depend on the situation, but its very handy to have one as close as possible in the event the situation gets worse, they can report issues the aircraft cannot see or have time to report, and should the aircraft be downed, establish the sites location and resources needed. Even then, sometimes things go wrong, as the report into the downing of VH-WJC reveals (http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24698/198302284.pdf), when resources were not utilised that could have made a significant difference to the outcome, or the resources where not utilised as effectively as they should have been.