Ask The Pilot

[legroom]

Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

There are 4 pilots on any flight to LAX ex AUS plus SIN/LHR.

AUS to SIN/HKG usually has 3 pilots although because the SIN-LHR requires 4, occasionally there are 4 pilots ex AUS - SIN

Of those 3-4 pilots on board, how many are qualified Captain(s), FO(s) ...?

On a recent SQ A380 flight (CDG-SIN), unless my ears played trick on me with the Singapore accent, I heard the Captain's welcome spiel saying there is "another Captain on board, in addition to the FO".

Is that an unusual event - having two Captains on board?

When / Why would that occur ?

Thanks

 

[mannej]

Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

Of those 3-4 pilots on board, how many are qualified Captain(s), FO(s) ...?

On a recent SQ A380 flight (CDG-SIN), unless my ears played trick on me with the Singapore accent, I heard the Captain's welcome spiel saying there is "another Captain on board, in addition to the FO".

Is that an unusual event - having two Captains on board?

When / Why would that occur ?

Thanks

Isn't that an augmented crew?

 

[jb747]

I was thinking more in terms of rested pilots, diversions and "tolerance for irregular occurrences" than having two in the coughpit at any particular time. If a two pilot crew has a suitable "buffer" for diversion flexibility, and the pilots are suitably rested to do their job safely, I agree, no issue.

Thanks for answering all my questions - pilot and crew rostering I find interesting as there are safety / work limit parallels to the medical workforce issues and patient safety.

Look at the body clock timings of the DXB-LHR and LHR-DXB legs and you'll see that they're both basically daytime (body) legs (in Oz time). Assuming you get some sleep beforehand, then both are quite straightforward, as long as you're still in east coast time. They would actually be easier for an Oz based crew than a crew based at either LHR or DXB, for whom they'd both be all night legs.

Getting sleep before a flight is, of course, extremely problematic. Nobody that I know can sleep as desired, and hotels that happen to be noisy, or attract noisy guests (any airport hotel), can kill any chance of a sleep. Sometimes things that seem like a good idea (48 hour slips), can be much worse than the alternative 24 hour slip. Every case is different, and prescriptive rules aren't necessarily a good answer.

 

[legroom]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

Isn't that an augmented crew?

OK, sorry for my lack of knowledge, but... what is "an augmented crew"?

And when / why would that happen ?

Always with two Captains ?

Or 1 Captain + 2 FOs ?

Many thanks

 

[jb747]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

OK, sorry for my lack of knowledge, but... what is "an augmented crew"?

An augmented crew is any flight crew that carries extra members over the minimum required to fly the aircraft. All of the current machinery requires a minumum of two pilots...any more than that and it becomes augmented.

And when / why would that happen ?

Flight and duty time limitations vary a bit around the world, but at their simplest they limit any TWO man crew to 8 hours of flight time and 11 hours on duty (i.e. at work in any sense) per duty period. So, if you have a flight that is 8 hours long, and for which the duty time would be 9:30, that would be the limit you could plan. Alternatively, if you had a multi sector day, with a total of only 7 hours, but duty time of 11, then that would also hit a limit.

Delays that cause a duty that was within limits to go past them can be accommodated by extensions of one hour to each of the duty and flight times, but these are given solely at the discretion of the crew, and a company can neither plan on them, or attempt to force them.

If you flights are longer, you obviously need both more available duty and flight time. Adding one crew member will increase the planned duty 14 hours, extendable to 16, or 8:30 flight time (time in the bunk doesn't count for this) which gets you to about 12 hour flights. Going beyond that again, and you require a fourth pilot and now you can do those 16 hour flights.

There are lots of variations to these rules, and some are based on fatigue science, whilst others have been pulled from some administrators' bottom drawers. Some are safe and sensible, whilst others border on madness.

Always with two Captains ?

This is handled differently around the world, and in large part depends upon the qualification level of the FO. Many FOs, even on very large jets, are little more than novices, and they are never left in charge of an aircraft. Other airlines have FOs who have limited command endorsements on the aircraft, and they can be left in charge for many hours at at time. In my case, we always operate with one Captain, one FO, and add SOs as needed. Other airlines always add extra captains and FOs.

 

[jb747]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

Of those 3-4 pilots on board, how many are qualified Captain(s), FO(s) ...?

On a recent SQ A380 flight (CDG-SIN), unless my ears played trick on me with the Singapore accent, I heard the Captain's welcome spiel saying there is "another Captain on board, in addition to the FO".

Is that an unusual event - having two Captains on board?

When / Why would that occur ?

Singair operate their augmented crews with either an additional captain and FO, or just an FO.

You'll also see an extra captain when route or standards checking or training is happening.

Occasionally you'll even see people operating out of rank. I've done a couple of trips where I've been the SO, and FOs do that job fairly regularly. Most captains cannot fill in for the FO though, as they aren't right hand seat qualified (although, of course, training captains can). That comes up when a sudden sickness downline forces the schedulers to just grab whomever they can...

 

[JohnPhelan]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

In my case, we always operate with one Captain, one FO, and add SOs as needed. Other airlines always add extra captains and FOs.

And then there's the rare occasion like QF32 that day ex SIN !

 

[legroom]

Ask The Pilot

Singair operate their augmented crews with either an additional captain and FO, or just an FO.

You'll also see an extra captain when route or standards checking or training is happening.

Occasionally you'll even see people operating out of rank. I've done a couple of trips where I've been the SO, and FOs do that job fairly regularly. Most captains cannot fill in for the FO though, as they aren't right hand seat qualified (although, of course, training captains can). That comes up when a sudden sickness downline forces the schedulers to just grab whomever they can...

Thank you for your detailed and courteous replies.

Now I know a lot more than yesterday !

Just an oddball follow up here, if I may.

In an emergency, with two captains on board, (or with someone operating out of rank but really is a senior person), who has the final authority?

Also, does the captain rest in standard crew bunk bed or get to rest in an F seat ??

Thank you

 

[jb747]

In an emergency, with two captains on board, (or with someone operating out of rank but really is a senior person), who has the final authority?

One will always be nominated prior to the flight as the pilot in command.

Also, does the captain rest in standard crew bunk bed or get to rest in an F seat ??

That will differ with companies and aircraft.

In our A380s we have two small rooms (each containing a bunk and a chair) just behind the coughpit. Way better, and much more isolated, than any seat in the cabin.

 

[jastel]

Last time I flew to LAX on the Qantas A380 we stopped short of the airbridge. The pilot announced we had to be towed in by the tractor.
As we were a bit early the tractor took some time to come.
Why would this be? The stopping short and towing, not the tractor being late...
Are the planes too hard to manouver...or is it a safety thing?

Thanks

 

[Flying Fox]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

Always with two Captains ?

Or 1 Captain + 2 FOs ?

I can say that I flew HNL-SYD with JQ and one of the captains said that they had an unusual situation with 3 captains flying today. I thought that was pretty cool!

 

[jb747]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

I can say that I flew HNL-SYD with JQ and one of the captains said that they had an unusual situation with 3 captains flying today. I thought that was pretty cool!

I think the general consensus is that the more Captains you have, over that minimum of one, the less safe you are......

 

[jb747]

Last time I flew to LAX on the Qantas A380 we stopped short of the airbridge. The pilot announced we had to be towed in by the tractor.
As we were a bit early the tractor took some time to come.
Why would this be? The stopping short and towing, not the tractor being late...
Are the planes too hard to manouver...or is it a safety thing?

Normal in LA. Happens with the 747s as well on some gates. I think it's mostly a jet blast issue.

 

[jastel]

Thanks for the reply, I did notice there was lots of baggage trolleys and other equipment stored very close by.
I guess LAX is as crowded for pilots outside as it is for passengers inside.

 

[serfty]

Normal in LA. Happens with the 747s as well on some gates. I think it's mostly a jet blast issue.

Thanks for the reply, I did notice there was lots of baggage trolleys and other equipment stored very close by.
I guess LAX is as crowded for pilots outside as it is for passengers inside.

FWIW, I have experinced this on any T4 gate and the old TBIT gates when arriving on a 744 or bigger.

In November, arriving at the then spanking new TBIT 134 gate there was no tow - I mainly noted by it's absence.

 

[mjt57]

Getting sleep before a flight is, of course, extremely problematic. Nobody that I know can sleep as desired, and hotels that happen to be noisy, or attract noisy guests (any airport hotel), can kill any chance of a sleep.

Earplugs don't help?

For me, when on nightshift, they're a necessity, even when there's no-one at home.

 

[mjt57]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

Flight and duty time limitations vary a bit around the world, but at their simplest they limit any TWO man crew to 8 hours of flight time and 11 hours on duty (i.e. at work in any sense) per duty period.

What do you guys do when you need a break, to use the loo, stretch the legs, etc., if there's only two up on the flight deck?

Also, with a 2 person would you have an FO with no command experience on type, or in such cases would s/he require those extra quals?

 

[legroom]

Ask The Pilot

I think the general consensus is that the more Captains you have, over that minimum of one, the less safe you are......

Or as they say, ... more cooks in the kitchen....

 

[jb747]

Earplugs don't help?

For me, when on nightshift, they're a necessity, even when there's no-one at home.

My earplug wearing is so habitual that I have to use them no matter where I am. But, whilst they keep out much noise, they're generally not effective at keeping out the noise of people who seem to think the corridors are extensions of the local football field, or who don't know that doors can be closed without slamming.

Most of the issue is that you're simply trying to sleep at times your body doesn't want to.

 

[jb747]

Re: Now Boarding ... Chicken or Beef?

What do you guys do when you need a break, to use the loo, stretch the legs, etc., if there's only two up on the flight deck?

If you need to go to the loo, or stretch your legs, you pick a quiet time and just leave one person there. It will be a minimal break...you won't go back and talk to the passengers.

Also, with a 2 person would you have an FO with no command experience on type, or in such cases would s/he require those extra quals?

The FO will never have command experience on the type...otherwise he'd be a Captain. In our operation, FOs are trained and licensed for 'command in the cruise', which is one reason why we never have direct entry FOs.