Ask The Pilot

[bryanjones]

This appears to have been taken at the Payern airshow 2 weeks ago. I saw some of it as i drove to zrh for my flight to beijing

 

[uzza]

G'day JB


As I'm sure a few of us did, did you happen to see the story on 60 Minutes this week about the retirement flight of the QF 767 (VH-OGG) to Victorville in the Californian desert by any chance?

For anyone curious, here's a link: Plane Graveyard | 60 Minutes | 9jumpin

It wasn't a bad light piece on an unusual topic for most members of the public, I was always curious what a ferry flight like that must be like. It appears to feed into a story on the 787 or 737 as Charles Wooley went there towards the end of the story.



Have you ever done a retirement flight (or similar ferry)? I'd assume they would be relatively similar to a normal passenger flight except they leave from the maintenance area and a few less crew etc.

I've seen a couple of these flights on FR24 go direct SYD-VCV (I may have even seen one for a 747 go direct to Marana in Arizona). How does customs work in that situation? (i.e. landing in an unusual place not normally frequented by international flights). I wouldn't have thought they would have a presence there, or do they farm it out to the local cops maybe?

Thanks again for putting up with all our questions and responding, I know I and everyone else loves this thread to bits!

p.s. - Too bad you're not on the 93 on Melbourne Cup Day, I'd have love to met you!

I'm in First (1st time and pretty excited!) and I've got nowhere to be urgently when I get to LAX, do pilots normally mind if you ask to come say hi after the flight lands?

 

[jb747]

As I'm sure a few of us did, did you happen to see the story on 60 Minutes this week about the retirement flight of the QF 767 (VH-OGG) to Victorville in the Californian desert by any chance?

For anyone curious, here's a link: Plane Graveyard | 60 Minutes | 9jumpin

It wasn't a bad light piece on an unusual topic for most members of the public, I was always curious what a ferry flight like that must be like. It appears to feed into a story on the 787 or 737 as Charles Wooley went there towards the end of the story.



Have you ever done a retirement flight (or similar ferry)? I'd assume they would be relatively similar to a normal passenger flight except they leave from the maintenance area and a few less crew etc.

I've done plenty of ferry flights over the years. They come up for all sorts of reasons, though most are to maintenance facilities. I've never done a graveyard flight, and I don't expect I ever will. The crew structure varies depending upon how long they are. A very long one might have four pilots and two cabin crew, whilst a trip to Avalon is just two pilots. OJK came back from Manila with 4 pilots (3 Captains and 1 FO), 1 steward, and about 20 engineers.

I've seen a couple of these flights on FR24 go direct SYD-VCV (I may have even seen one for a 747 go direct to Marana in Arizona). How does customs work in that situation? (i.e. landing in an unusual place not normally frequented by international flights). I wouldn't have thought they would have a presence there, or do they farm it out to the local cops maybe?

I expect that whilst they don't have a facility able to handle passengers, they would have one or two agents permanently in place to handle these movements. Remember, they're used by every airline in the world, so there could easily a couple of movements per day.

I'm in First (1st time and pretty excited!) and I've got nowhere to be urgently when I get to LAX, do pilots normally mind if you ask to come say hi after the flight lands?

Nobody minds. Just ask the cabin crew to pass the message along before you get there.

 

[alieninperth]

G'day JB


As I'm sure a few of us did, did you happen to see the story on 60 Minutes this week about the retirement flight of the QF 767 (VH-OGG) to Victorville in the Californian desert by any chance?

For anyone curious, here's a link: Plane Graveyard | 60 Minutes | 9jumpin

It wasn't a bad light piece on an unusual topic for most members of the public, I was always curious what a ferry flight like that must be like...

I thought this was unusally good for 60mins. Both my wife and I commented on the fact that 4 female pilots were the ones doing the flying. QF showing its diverstiy in the coughpit perhaps.

 

[knasty]

It is a gusty day in Syd which got me thinking. If you have a reasonable headwind during the takeoff roll and it drops just as you rotate how much leeway is there in airspeed to still maintain positive climb? Will autothrottle power up? During an autoland if for example a cross wind exceeds the maximum will the autopilot ever disengage and revert to manual or will autoland always do whatever is within its parameters to get you down unless/until it is disengaged? Thanks in advance.

 

[jb747]

It is a gusty day in Syd which got me thinking. If you have a reasonable headwind during the takeoff roll and it drops just as you rotate how much leeway is there in airspeed to still maintain positive climb? Will autothrottle power up?

In round figures, there is about 15% margin above the stall as you take off. At this point speed is controlled by pitch, and the power is fixed. The auto throttle is not engaged until clean up altitude...basically it sets the thrust and then goes to sleep (or hold) to ensure it can't unintentionally reduce the thrust. If more power is needed, pushing the levers to TO/GA will give whatever (if any) is available, in all types.

During an autoland if for example a cross wind exceeds the maximum will the autopilot ever disengage and revert to manual or will autoland always do whatever is within its parameters to get you down unless/until it is disengaged? Thanks in advance.

The autopilot will normally do what it can until disengaged. Manual limits are appreciably higher than a/p limits, though they've generally been demonstrated by the makers to a few knots over the limit. I never let it continue if the crosswind is anywhere near limiting...it's much easier to fly it myself than to try and fix things if the machine loses the plot. Actually, I rarely use autoland unless forced to by the conditions, or if I need one for 'recency'.

 

[Fruitcake]

Manual limits are appreciably higher than a/p limits, though they've generally been demonstrated by the makers to a few knots over the limit. I never let it continue if the crosswind is anywhere near limiting...it's much easier to fly it myself than to try and fix things if the machine loses the plot.

Are the crosswind limits QF policy, certified absolute limits or is the aircraft certified with a maximum demonstrated crosswind that QF binds you to?

 

[jb747]

Are the crosswind limits QF policy, certified absolute limits or is the aircraft certified with a maximum demonstrated crosswind that QF binds you to?

The limits come in various flavours. Autoland limits vary depending upon the visibility (<400 mts vis, means 10 knots), as well as being stated limits (747 25 knots, 380 30 knots). Manually flown the crosswind limits rise to 35-40 knots, including gusts. The manuals may mention demonstrated which are often quite a bit more extreme, and which probably represent the worst conditions encountered when the test pilots were doing their flying. I've heard of airlines using them as limits for line pilots, which I consider patently stupid....line pilots and test pilots are two very different animals.

Companies, CASA (or equivalent), and makers can all impose limits, and the most limiting is the one that's applicable.

 

[flychrisfly]

If more power is needed, pushing the levers to TO/GA will give whatever (if any) is available, in all types.

Would there be a situation where you would not need full TO/GA power for a go around? For example, if the go around was requested 'early' in the landing sequence.

 

[jb747]

Would there be a situation where you would not need full TO/GA power for a go around? For example, if the go around was requested 'early' in the landing sequence.

That's one of the modes in the A380 and the 744. In the Boeing, pushing the TO/GA switch once gives a go around with a targeted 2,000 fpm. A second push gives the full charge. In the A380, 'soft go around' mode, has the same target, and is activated by pushing the levers to TO/GA, and then back to MCT.

The full charge, in a light weight aircraft, especially with a relatively low level off, is way too much power.

 

[flychrisfly]

That's one of the modes in the A380 and the 744. In the Boeing, pushing the TO/GA switch once gives a go around with a targeted 2,000 fpm. A second push gives the full charge. In the A380, 'soft go around' mode, has the same target, and is activated by pushing the levers to TO/GA, and then back to MCT.

The full charge, in a light weight aircraft, especially with a relatively low level off, is way too much power.

Thanks JB.

"MCT"? Max Climb Thrust? Pretty sure it's not Minimum Connection Time!

Whilst on the subject, if you are queueing in one of Heathrow's race car circuit holding areas and know you'll be landing in, say, 30 mins but something comes up and you need more time, how do you get out of the landing pattern and where do you end up?

 

[mikenz]

What does TO/GA mean?

 

[anat0l]

What does TO/GA mean?

Take Off / Go Around

 

[TomVexille]

What does TO/GA mean?

Take Off/Go Around

 

[jb747]

Thanks JB.

"MCT"?

Maximum continuous thrust. Take off thrust is limited to 5-10 minutes.

Whilst on the subject, if you are queueing in one of Heathrow's race car circuit holding areas and know you'll be landing in, say, 30 mins but something comes up and you need more time, how do you get out of the landing pattern and where do you end up?

Just tell ATC. They can either give you a radar vector, or perhaps send you to another holding area. Easily enough handled.

 

[day-heg]

"MCT"? Max Climb Thrust? Pretty sure it's not Minimum Connection Time!

Maximum Continuous Thrust, the highest rating engines can operate at without time limitation.

Full power produces more thrust but is time limited to reduce engine wear/maintenance costs.

 

[uzza]

I've done plenty of ferry flights over the years. They come up for all sorts of reasons, though most are to maintenance facilities. I've never done a graveyard flight, and I don't expect I ever will. The crew structure varies depending upon how long they are. A very long one might have four pilots and two cabin crew, whilst a trip to Avalon is just two pilots. OJK came back from Manila with 4 pilots (3 Captains and 1 FO), 1 steward, and about 20 engineers.



I expect that whilst they don't have a facility able to handle passengers, they would have one or two agents permanently in place to handle these movements. Remember, they're used by every airline in the world, so there could easily a couple of movements per day.



Nobody minds. Just ask the cabin crew to pass the message along before you get there.

Thanks JB! As always a fascinating response!

And thanks for the info re: coughpit visit post flight, I'll definitely be asking the cabin crew if I can pop my head in and say hello!

 

[harvyk]

Thanks JB! As always a fascinating response!

And thanks for the info re: coughpit visit post flight, I'll definitely be asking the cabin crew if I can pop my head in and say hello!

I've visited the coughpit a few times and I've only been knocked back once by an FA who insisted it couldn't be done (and wouldn't even ask the pilot). I figured in that case I'd leave it alone for that flight (I figured discussing the finer points of coughpit access with an FA was not going to end well for me). IME when you get up there the pilots will vary from "here is another one" to absolutely eager to show you every button and light.

 

[uzza]

I've visited the coughpit a few times and I've only been knocked back once by an FA who insisted it couldn't be done (and wouldn't even ask the pilot). I figured in that case I'd leave it alone for that flight (I figured discussing the finer points of coughpit access with an FA was not going to end well for me). IME when you get up there the pilots will vary from "here is another one" to absolutely eager to show you every button and light.

Great feedback, thanks! I'm hoping it's the latter, but I also don't want to hold them up - just a quick hi and mark visit an A380 coughpit off the list (already marked off 747!).

I sat in the FO seat of a Cessna 441 flying back from the far Southwest of Tassie to HBA recently for work, plenty to see there even on an A/C that size. I imagine the A380 coughpit will make that setup look tiny!

 

[jb747]

Great feedback, thanks! I'm hoping it's the latter, but I also don't want to hold them up - just a quick hi and mark visit an A380 coughpit off the list (already marked off 747!).

The sooner you get there the better. The boys will leave the aircraft as soon as passengers are all gone...so try not to be sitting at the back of the aircraft.

And in a great example of how things change... I was going to LA tomorrow on QF11, but now I'm going to Dubai tonight on the 9, then to London, and pax all the way back.