Ask The Pilot

[opusman]

And who checks the checker?

 

[RooFlyer]

On the subject of checking, is there such a thing as an airline taking a completed flight's recorded information (FDR, CVR and with A380 no doubt the whole data set) and reviewing it with a view to critiquing or 'marking' an individual's or crew's performance? The point being that the individual / crew wouldn't know that they are being judged that flight and they would revert to normal, perhaps more relaxed (and possibly ill advised) behaviours?

 

[Hvr]

Do check captains have to do the occasional flight as the Captain to maintain their flight currency?

And, do they hours they work as a check captain count as flying hours for their log book?

 

[jb747]

JB When you get a new aircraft such as the 380 how do the check captains get the required experience to check on that airframe ? How much of the check is aircraft specific vs general?

They are the first blokes trained on any new aircraft. In the case of the A380, they all came via the A330 (even if they were originally on the 747), so that got them prior Airbus experience. Then they went to France and did their flying with AB.

A check is a mixture of aircraft and general. Some is decided by the training department and nominated for each year. The aircraft specific stuff just tends to come up in response to whatever happens on the day.

 

[jb747]

And who checks the checker?

Other checkers. They do all of the same sims and checks, irrespective of their title.

 

[jb747]

On the subject of checking, is there such a thing as an airline taking a completed flight's recorded information (FDR, CVR and with A380 no doubt the whole data set) and reviewing it with a view to critiquing or 'marking' an individual's or crew's performance? The point being that the individual / crew wouldn't know that they are being judged that flight and they would revert to normal, perhaps more relaxed (and possibly ill advised) behaviours?

And what a great way that would be to ensure that the appropriate CBs were always pulled. There are agreements with regard to this sort of information. Basically FDR and CVR data is not available to the companies. It's there for the ATSBs of the world. QAR data is allowed to be used, but only as a general, and not identified, form of monitoring a whole fleet. Data can be extracted at the request of the Captain.

The form of big brother that you suggest would almost certainly be counter productive. The use of a real live person in these checks provides context. Raw numbers without that would likely be quite pointless.

 

[Boris spatsky]

On the subject of checking, is there such a thing as an airline taking a completed flight's recorded information (FDR, CVR and with A380 no doubt the whole data set) and reviewing it with a view to critiquing or 'marking' an individual's or crew's performance? The point being that the individual / crew wouldn't know that they are being judged that flight and they would revert to normal, perhaps more relaxed (and possibly ill advised) behaviours?

Every flight we do has the data downloaded and analysed (excluding the CVR). The data is checked against specified criteria. For example, there are a number of speed/rate of descent 'gates' on approach which you are not allowed to exceed. If you do exceed these, you are required to go around. If you don't, you will get a phonecall or be summonsed to explain your actions.

It has its pros and cons. You don't get a score; it is purely used to assess whether the crew is adhering to SOPs. Most people will never get a call.

 

[jb747]

Do check captains have to do the occasional flight as the Captain to maintain their flight currency?

The term is a bit of misnomer. They are really 'check and training' Captains. In our operation they are normally rostered to fly a checking line roughly once a year. The rest of the time, they fly as Captain, though very often with trainees. Sim instructors are normally retired people. Senior check Captains also both fly, and teach on the line, but they spend about 2/3rds of their time in the sim.

And, do they hours they work as a check captain count as flying hours for their log book?

Yes, but not as command hours.

 

[coriander]

Do check captains have to do the occasional flight as the Captain to maintain their flight currency?

David Evans was our captain on QF93 in Jan.

 

[RooFlyer]

And what a great way that would be to ensure that the appropriate CBs were always pulled. <snip>
The form of big brother that you suggest would almost certainly be counter productive. The use of a real live person in these checks provides context. Raw numbers without that would likely be quite pointless.

I think CB is Circuit Breaker? Presumably if they were disabled repeatedly by certain crews or individuals that itself would be worth flagging.

Not advocating what I asked about by any means but I was thinking about what we see on programs like 'Air Crash Investigation' (faults of this genre acknowledged). Some accidents appear to be the result of a series of small things - too much talking/distractions, short cuts in checklists etc. I thought if cabin audio with data was reviewed these habits if present may get detected 'early' and 'guidance' given. I'm assuming (maybe incorrectly) that such wouldn't usually be on show during check flights.

 

[jb747]

Not advocating what I asked about by any means but I was thinking about what we see on programs like 'Air Crash Investigation' (faults of this genre acknowledged). Some accidents appear to be the result of a series of small things - too much talking/distractions, short cuts in checklists etc. I thought if cabin audio with data was reviewed these habits if present may get detected 'early' and 'guidance' given. I'm assuming (maybe incorrectly) that such wouldn't usually be on show during check flights.

Checks give plenty of opportunity for those who are so inclined to deviate from the standard.

 

[747sp]

People can, and do, fail these checks. There is always a series of 'discussion items' which are covered at some point in the cruise. It's a good idea to have done your homework on them. Generally though, mistakes won't cost you as long as you have a crew that is working together. Mistakes are rarely missed by the entire crew, and as long as you are receptive to the occasional suggestion of 'are you sure you want to do that', then they are easily fixed. An error that is corrected is not an issue. As always, a good crew makes things easy.

Hi JB I just want to say this is why I always want to fly Qantas as I have 100% confidence in the crew working as a team all the time .

Years ago Qantas flew a few rescue missions from Frankfurt to Egypt to help rescue Australians. I would assume on such occasions Qantas would not fly the flight crew in earlier. So if the flight is really long can a second flight crew go in on the inbound flight as passengers and then fly the plane back.

Another way to ask this question can your employer fly you in as a passenger to say Dubai and then make you turn around and fly back immediately.

I also noted you mentioned command hours. Do you have to fly a certain amount of hours per year to stay current as Captain as apposed to flying hours?

 

[welltravelled]

It's just the Captain or FO. He must be the pilot doing the actual flying, so if the weather causes the Captain to take any part of the sector back (on an FO check), then that invalidates it.

SOs don't do route checks.

In my operation we can do individual route/line checks or as a crew. It depends on availability and crew scheduling as to how it pans out.
I did one last month which was Captain and F/O but last year was just Captain.
Is resource driven I imagine!

 

[jb747]

On a long route check sector, say MEL to LAX, does the Checking Captain take a break?

The have a couple of different ways of scheduling these. On this trip, the CC was additional to the normal crew, so he was not part of our roster. He sat in the coughpit for the first and last couple of hours of the flight, but had an allocated seat in the cabin.

Sometimes he will be scheduled as an SO. In that case, you lose one of the actual SOs and incorporate him into the roster. Most of us prefer that he only wears one hat, but it's obviously up to crew scheduling.

 

[jb747]

Years ago Qantas flew a few rescue missions from Frankfurt to Egypt to help rescue Australians. I would assume on such occasions Qantas would not fly the flight crew in earlier. So if the flight is really long can a second flight crew go in on the inbound flight as passengers and then fly the plane back.

No. The time clock would start in Frankfurt. Paxing, without a slip, is simply part of the same tour of duty, and would not increase the limits at all. It this case, it's about a 4 hour flight. So with an hour at the start, and a couple for the turnaround, you'd have minimum ToD of about 11 hours. I'm sure they would have carried a heavy crew, so they would have a maximum of 20 hours available...so about 9 spare.

Another way to ask this question can your employer fly you in as a passenger to say

Dubai and then make you turn around and fly back immediately.

No. Long haul operations can require up to 24 hours totally free of duty before the flight. That includes paxing. It's not just the rules though. It would be outright dangerous. You don't really get rest on an aircraft...and I can't imaging how horrible you'd feel at the end of that sort of double tour of duty.

I also noted you mentioned command hours. Do you have to fly a certain amount of hours per year to stay current as Captain as apposed to flying hours?

There's no nominated minimum hours per year, but there are recency requirements. Some of our management people wouldn't do too well if such a limit were imposed. For most of us, if you are a Captain, then the only hours you get are command hours. I don't fly as an FO, and whilst I can fly as an SO, I haven't done so for a couple of years. It's not terribly cost effective, and is only used to get scheduling out of a hole.

 

[clazman]

Could we get examples of what you would expect to see on maintenance lists that would allow you to fly

If you discover a issue during preflight, who makes the risk decision on go or stay as a captain do you have the final say

 

[jb747]

Could we get examples of what you would expect to see on maintenance lists that would allow you to fly

If you discover a issue during preflight, who makes the risk decision on go or stay as a captain do you have the final say

The Captain always has the final say. MELs will be applied by the engineers, but you don't have to accept any of them. The engineers are not pilots, and as such can't consider issues that fall into our sphere. For instance, an MEL might have allowed a 767 to depart Australia to HK, but that same MEL would have been so restrictive departing HK that it would have precluded carrying any passengers. The one I'm think of there is 'retraction braking', which means that the wheels have to be left extended for two minutes after take off. It's a perfectly legitimate MEL, but the pilots will also consider the effects of having the gear out for those two minutes on the performance, both normally and engine out. If the weather in HK was going to require a take off on 07, then engine out terrain issues would make the operation impossible. In that instance, the Captain ex Oz refused the MEL, because it would impact the next sector, but not his.

Individual brakes can be locked out. There's obviously a limit to just how many, and they have performance effects for both take off and landing that must be considered. The MELs themselves will include the maintenance and operational procedures that need to be carried out.

The APU can be totally inoperative. It can also be partially out of service as well, able to provide only electrics, or only bleed air.

Warning system issues can sometimes be allowed, generally where there is either a second system, or an alternative method. For instance the Airbus doors have residual pressure warnings to show that the doors should not be opened. If that system is out, the the alternative method is to check the actual residual pressure in the coughpit, and if it isn't zero, then to open the coughpit windows to release the pressure.

Boeings have three autopilots. With one exception, only one can be used at any given time, so an individual autopilot can be MELed. Part of the O items would be a reduction in auto land ability to Cat II.

There are literally thousands of MELs. They are all listed in the manuals. If it isn't specifically listed, then a procedure can't be made up. If there isn't a listed MEL, it means that the issue must be fixed before the next flight. They are also very specific...an MEL that incidentally covers a fault, but which actually applies to an upstream system, cannot be applied.

They can be applied at any time prior to take off. When the engineers apply them, they enter them into the log, and any M(aintenance) and O(operations) procedures are carried out. If you get an ECAM whilst taxiing, after completing the actions, you can have a look at the MELs. If the item does not have any listed M items, you can apply the O, and then continue the flight. If there's an M, you need to go back to the gate.

They always have time limits. Sometimes a number of days, but other times flight hours or even a number of flights. Some can only be applied when away from a home base; which is why (for instance) Singair might be able to MEL an item in Sydney, whilst QF would have to fix the same item.

Generally the aircraft are pretty clean, with no, or only trivial MELs applied. We had four the other day, which is quite lot, but only one required any O items. On another recent flight, we applied one of the fuel pump MELs whilst taxiing out. Not only was it a backup pump...but the tank was basically empty anyway (which is probably what set the fault message off).

At the start of a flight, all MELs that are entered into the 'hold' section of the log are read through, and looked up in our system. We do that whether they have just been applied, or are days old. That allows us to check that the M items have happened (some are done once, but others every turnaround) and also to see if we must carry out any O items. We also tick the items on the computer system, which has the effect of transferring them to the performance modules, and means that performance issues will be considered when we do the take off or landing calculations.

 

[legroom]

JB

Would it be possible to know of some anonymous examples of route check failures that you are aware of (may not be from QF) ?

As you mentioned, if the whole crew is functional as one team, it's rather difficult to fail. But surely there must be some occasional ones. What happened there ?

Also, what will happen to the captain who fails the route check ?

Thanks

 

[jb747]

Would it be possible to know of some anonymous examples of route check failures that you are aware of (may not be from QF) ?

We don't get feedback on other people's checks, so I know very little about them.

As you mentioned, if the whole crew is functional as one team, it's rather difficult to fail. But surely there must be some occasional ones. What happened there ?

Ensuring that you have built an environment for a decent crew to exist is an obvious issue. Hitlers aren't leaders, and generally get the crew they deserve. There's an issue that will get you a fail for sure.

About 15 specific flying related items are rated (i.e. ILS, visual approach, take off, landing, etc). Whilst not all will be rated on any given flight, all ratings that are given must be 'proficient' or better. The overall score is always the lowest of any individual facet.

Also, what will happen to the captain who fails the route check ?

Initially you will do it again. It could lead to more training, or even an overall negative assessment, in which case you possibly need to look for another job.

 

[Himeno]

Do you know who the rest of your crew will be for each flight when you get the roster, or do you find out at the airport?