Ask The Pilot

[Alanslegal]

Just finished watching Madam Secretary and it got me thinking; a really important plane like Air Force 1, would a commercial airline who is within the proximity of that plane be able to see it on their radar or would it be such secret, that you won't even know it's there? I assume they would get top priority for air space too? Also, a boring plane like our VIP jets that the PM gets around in, would you see that on the plane's radar?

 

[jb747]

My understanding is that as the pilot you need to know the weight of the fuel loaded. When filling up, the flow is measured in gallons and converted. My question is does the density of the fuel vary from location to location and thus needs to be considered.

The density does vary, but not by a great deal. But, when ordering 200,000 kgs of fuel, even tiny changes make a big difference.

A second question.

Whenyou are certified to fly 2 different types of aircraft ie 767 200 or 300 and there is a problem does the procedure change for the different plane types or is it always the same ?

Most differences between sub types are fairly minor. Again though, they can add up to make the overall feel of two aircraft substantially different. It's just something you have to allow for. In the case of the 767, the 200 and 300 (and then the GE and RR 300s) all flew quite differently. Even the flare technique differed. Procedurally they'll be kept as close together as possible though. Airbus take that further though, with procedures aligned across different types, even though no pilots fly A320 and A380 concurrently. This is a dumb idea, but follows their god of commonality.

 

[jb747]

How does that go with visas and so on for the Australian crew? Are they considered as working in the US?

Ah, US visas. What a pita. There is a crew visa that you need to renew every 5 years. Doing so is generally made as painful as possible, and it's such a pity that the Australian government doesn't return the favour by demanding the same of the US airlines.

 

[jb747]

Just finished watching Madam Secretary and it got me thinking; a really important plane like Air Force 1, would a commercial airline who is within the proximity of that plane be able to see it on their radar or would it be such secret, that you won't even know it's there? I assume they would get top priority for air space too? Also, a boring plane like our VIP jets that the PM gets around in, would you see that on the plane's radar?

Our radar is designed to see weather, not other aircraft, so, especially in the automatic modes, doesn't show much of other aircraft at all. You sometimes see jamming when flying in the more military dominated parts of the world. The various VIP jets aren't stealthy at all though, and will show up as well as any other airliner. They also have their TCAS, so that makes them obvious on the screens. The egos show up clearly though, with ATC being forced to allow such important people priority...even to the extent of long holding periods during some VIP movements.

 

[JohnM]

Ah, US visas. What a pita. There is a crew visa that you need to renew every 5 years. Doing so is generally made as painful as possible, and it's such a pity that the Australian government doesn't return the favour by demanding the same of the US airlines.

Sounds a little like having an Official Passport (not the same as a Diplomatic PP) when working for an Australian Government department or organisation. When I had to get a visa on the O PP to travel to LOTFAP for a conference, I figured it was not worth the paper it was printed on. I mean, I was working for the Australian Government but was trusted less than if I were travelling as a tourist on a personal PP! It was easier to go on the personal PP.


I did once challenge the system by checking out of Aus on the O PP, going to Europe/UK on that, entering/departing LOTFAP on the personal PP and re-entering Australia I think on the personal (since I'd left LOTFAP on that). I think the agent in SYD queried it and said I should have used the one I'd left Aus on, but it created no problems. Never did renew my official passport.

Aaahhh, the logic of LOTFAP!

 

[jb747]

My current plan is to use the renewal date of the US visa as my retirement date.

The problem is largely that it takes a couple of weeks for the visa to be issued (and last I heard, because of some IT issue) they hadn't done any, worldwide, since around the 9th of June. During that time, you don't have your passport. The company sees that as being unqualified to work, and so you're stood down without pay for the period. The rest of the world basically does without any form of crew visa, and just uses your passport and the 'general declaration', which is issued for each flight.

If the rest of the world treated the US crews in exactly the same way, then perhaps they would have an incentive to improve the system. The only way to reasonably get it renewed is to do so when on leave...oh did I mention that you don't have your passport...so you won't be going anywhere on that leave.

 

[N860CR]

I enjoy the pointless and random questioning that comes with the U.S. Visa "interview". Very similar to standing at the immigration counter at LAX. Last time I got "which vessel do you fly", for future reference - don't point out that a vessel is a boat (didn't go down well).

I got somewhat lucky with my last one. Interviewed Wed morning and was courier delivered on Friday morning.

All in all an unpleasant experience for absolutely no reason other than the yanks waving it around. A nice little earner for them as well

 

[JohnM]

It's always a total one-way street with LOTFAP - and then they wonder why the rest of the world hates them .

 

[jb747]

One of the things that we've discussed in this thread is the ongoing simulator program that pilots constantly go through. Another part of the training and checking system is the annual 'route check'. These are normal flights on which a check Captain will ride along and watch what goes on. There is no script. This is a day to day line flight, and the Captain or FO under check is simply expected to deal with whatever comes along. Sometimes they are simple days, whilst on others you start to think you must be in the simulator.

Yesterday was my turn. The flight was QF 9 from Melbourne to Dubai. The day started with a delay of about two hours. The aircraft had a number of MELs (deferred maintenance items, none of which are major in themselves, but which can involve more paperwork or different procedures). Weather for the entire flight was benign...in fact I don't think we had to go off track at all in the entire journey. Arrival into Dubai was a little surprising, as the later arrival time put us into a very quiet period. Not only was there no holding, but about 60 miles was cut out of the descent (which throws up energy management). Overall a pretty normal day at the office. No particular issues, so a tick in the box until next year.

People can, and do, fail these checks. There is always a series of 'discussion items' which are covered at some point in the cruise. It's a good idea to have done your homework on them. Generally though, mistakes won't cost you as long as you have a crew that is working together. Mistakes are rarely missed by the entire crew, and as long as you are receptive to the occasional suggestion of 'are you sure you want to do that', then they are easily fixed. An error that is corrected is not an issue. As always, a good crew makes things easy.

 

[Gold Member]

In an emergency, any bit of runway that is long enough becomes viable (East Sale, Richmond, etc). Otherwise you'll need to be thinking in terms of Brisbane, Sydney, Adelaide. Perhaps Canberra, but all that hot air makes it a hard place to land.

JB, you can make an emergency landing in my street anytime you like. Just a few things you oughtta know first:

- I don't currently have an A380 airbridge. Still working on it...
- I will waive all landing fees (on behalf of the council).
- Customs and Immigration are taken care of, trust me. Say goodbye to all those pita ESTA problems...
- Remind me to hand you the council parking permit to put on your dash so that you won't get a parking fine slapped on the A380 windscreen.
- I am willing to grant you complimentary access to Gold Member's coveted First Class Arrivals and Departures Lounge - my lounge and beer fridge. The online community overwhelmingly agrees it betters the QF FCLs...
- Your experience in GMs FCL WILL involve Q&A time which would seem to repeat much of the content of this thread. But it will all sound new and wonderful to GM.
- We have just released our award winning Winter menu in the lounge. Be sure to check it out, and ask GM if there are any Chef's specials (last night's pizza).
- We do not offer massages or facials.
- We will not call your flight when ready to board.
- There's a 7-11 nearby so you should have no problem refuelling and stocking up on F&B for your onward flight. They accept all manner of credit cards. I can put it on my Amex and you can pay me back if that suits??
- You have been granted an instant upgrade to Diamond/God mode/Iridium Plus Elite at the GM residence. As a reminder, your benefits include club lounge access (breakfast from whenever I get up and can be bothered to put the kettle on, canapés and drinks whenever you like - help yourself to the fridges), free wifi (up to three devices only though), upgrade upon availability (from the couch to the spare room), and most importantly an inflated self ego to match your newly acquired status.

We look forward to welcoming you next time you choose an emergency landing in my street.

 

[Craigie]

People can, and do, fail these checks. There is always a series of 'discussion items' which are covered at some point in the cruise. It's a good idea to have done your homework on them. Generally though, mistakes won't cost you as long as you have a crew that is working together. Mistakes are rarely missed by the entire crew, and as long as you are receptive to the occasional suggestion of 'are you sure you want to do that', then they are easily fixed. An error that is corrected is not an issue. As always, a good crew makes things easy.

Is it just a check on one of the pilots or on all the captain, FO and SO at the one time?

 

[flychrisfly]

But, when ordering 200,000 kgs of fuel, even tiny changes make a big difference.

Just on this, from what I've read in this forum the aircraft manages its own fuel levels, etc. That is, there are devices on the plane that measure fuel loads in and out, with the values fed into the Fuel Management System. If there is a tiny error in one of the devices then over time isn't there a risk that the fuel system may think it has too liitle or too much fuel with a subsequent risk of over or under filling the tanks?

I would assume that the fuel counters are reset to zero during one of the big scheduled maintenance stop (C or D?) when the tanks are emptied and the plane weighed. Any ideas?

Thanks as always!

 

[jb747]

Is it just a check on one of the pilots or on all the captain, FO and SO at the one time?

It's just the Captain or FO. He must be the pilot doing the actual flying, so if the weather causes the Captain to take any part of the sector back (on an FO check), then that invalidates it.

SOs don't do route checks.

 

[jb747]

Just on this, from what I've read in this forum the aircraft manages its own fuel levels, etc. That is, there are devices on the plane that measure fuel loads in and out, with the values fed into the Fuel Management System. If there is a tiny error in one of the devices then over time isn't there a risk that the fuel system may think it has too liitle or too much fuel with a subsequent risk of over or under filling the tanks?

I would assume that the fuel counters are reset to zero during one of the big scheduled maintenance stop (C or D?) when the tanks are emptied and the plane weighed. Any ideas?

There is always some level of tolerance.

In flight, we regularly compare the fuel used vs loaded, against the totalisers. It's common to see a tonne or two difference. It also varies during the flight, sometimes increasing but at other times almost disappearing. The tanks are also 'stick' checked every now and then. i.e. a physical measuring of their contents.

 

[QF WP]

One of the things that we've discussed in this thread is the ongoing simulator program that pilots constantly go through. Another part of the training and checking system is the annual 'route check'. These are normal flights on which a check Captain will ride along and watch what goes on. There is no script. This is a day to day line flight, and the Captain or FO under check is simply expected to deal with whatever comes along. Sometimes they are simple days, whilst on others you start to think you must be in the simulator.

This in my neighbours job (Check Captain), but for VA Asia Pacific flights (as he is based out of AKL). At the moment, he is interviewing for another position (secret squirrel ATM). I am hoping to get him to comment on his experiences one day on this thread. He

Yesterday was my turn. The flight was QF 9 from Melbourne to Dubai. The day started with a delay of about two hours. The aircraft had a number of MELs (deferred maintenance items, none of which are major in themselves, but which can involve more paperwork or different procedures). Weather for the entire flight was benign...in fact I don't think we had to go off track at all in the entire journey. Arrival into Dubai was a little surprising, as the later arrival time put us into a very quiet period. Not only was there no holding, but about 60 miles was cut out of the descent (which throws up energy management). Overall a pretty normal day at the office. No particular issues, so a tick in the box until next year.

People can, and do, fail these checks. There is always a series of 'discussion items' which are covered at some point in the cruise. It's a good idea to have done your homework on them. Generally though, mistakes won't cost you as long as you have a crew that is working together. Mistakes are rarely missed by the entire crew, and as long as you are receptive to the occasional suggestion of 'are you sure you want to do that', then they are easily fixed. An error that is corrected is not an issue. As always, a good crew makes things easy.

Good to see you pass jb747 - any members lucky enough to fly with you (or have met you at the previous AFF MEL function) will attest to your willingness to come and chat if you know one of us are onboard.

 

[coriander]

the Captain or FO under check is simply expected to deal with whatever comes along. Sometimes they are simple days, whilst on others you start to think you must be in the simulator. ... <snip>... People can, and do, fail these checks.

IIRC Richard De Crespigny was doing his annual route check on QF32 (IIRC from his book he was being checked by CC Harry Wubben who was himself being checked by CC David Evans).
He wrote that David actually failed him on his route check.

 

[jb747]

IIRC Richard De Crespigny was doing his annual route check on QF32 (IIRC from his book he was being checked by CC Harry Wubben who was himself being checked by CC David Evans).
He wrote that David actually failed him on his route check.

It was Harry this time too.

But, RdC exercised a bit of artistic licence. He didn't fail the check, it simply wasn't completed. The reason was that there was input from the check pilots. Obviously given the circumstances of the day, completing the check became unimportant.

I've done flights with both, and they are thorough and very knowledgeable. Excellent people to have around when things go a bit pear shaped too.

On another occasion a bloke was doing a check in a 747 Classic out of Cairns. Took off, lost an engine. Sorted it all out and landed. All nicely done, but it was completed so expeditiously that the flight ended under the minimum allowed time (for a check).

 

[knasty]

JB When you get a new aircraft such as the 380 how do the check captains get the required experience to check on that airframe ? How much of the check is aircraft specific vs general?

 

[Boris spatsky]

One of the things that we've discussed in this thread is the ongoing simulator program that pilots constantly go through. Another part of the training and checking system is the annual 'route check'. These are normal flights on which a check Captain will ride along and watch what goes on. There is no script. This is a day to day line flight, and the Captain or FO under check is simply expected to deal with whatever comes along. Sometimes they are simple days, whilst on others you start to think you must be in the simulator.

Yesterday was my turn. The flight was QF 9 from Melbourne to Dubai. The day started with a delay of about two hours. The aircraft had a number of MELs (deferred maintenance items, none of which are major in themselves, but which can involve more paperwork or different procedures). Weather for the entire flight was benign...in fact I don't think we had to go off track at all in the entire journey. Arrival into Dubai was a little surprising, as the later arrival time put us into a very quiet period. Not only was there no holding, but about 60 miles was cut out of the descent (which throws up energy management). Overall a pretty normal day at the office. No particular issues, so a tick in the box until next year.

People can, and do, fail these checks. There is always a series of 'discussion items' which are covered at some point in the cruise. It's a good idea to have done your homework on them. Generally though, mistakes won't cost you as long as you have a crew that is working together. Mistakes are rarely missed by the entire crew, and as long as you are receptive to the occasional suggestion of 'are you sure you want to do that', then they are easily fixed. An error that is corrected is not an issue. As always, a good crew makes things easy.

In the short haul world, we also have annual route checks. I had mine a few months ago. Two shortish sectors return from Sydney. Pretty average weather at Sydney both out and in (thunderstorms), otherwise benign.

After landing at the end, the check captain quizzed us both for 90 minutes (because we are generally too busy airborne). Topics consisted mainly of questions on company fuel policy, recent changes to emergency procedures in flight as mandated by the manufacturer, and some technical questions (mainly to do with how the aircraft detects windshear, and subsequent procedures to escape it). All in all some good stuff, and always a good opportunity to learn from the check captain.

Done and dusted for another year.

 

[RobYg]

On a long route check sector, say MEL to LAX, does the Checking Captain take a break?