Ask The Pilot

  • Thread starter Thread starter NM
  • Start date Start date
  • Featured
Crikey, you guys would be absolutely knackered at the end, being more or less awake for the length of time. And I thought that my 12hr nightshifts were rough...

Still, we look forward to doing the PER-LHR run in 2018 if it's all up and running by then.

Can I ask this here? Will QF be offering premium economy seating on the B787s?

Yep we definitely are buggered by the end of it and still only have about 6hrs off during the flight and we don't take it all in one hit either to manage fatigue for the operating crew at the time.

But as D747 mentioned above, it will have a total of 236 seats and includes 42 J, 28 Y+ and 166 Y.
 
Ahh you'll love it - i am now on the 737 after a recent swap - built like a truck, 1980s technology, complex VNAV and the autopilot disconnects during a go around in most cases depending on the mode - she's a handful!
These KLM 737-800 guys show how crew management works so well. The flight is a short one between AMS to LHR, but shows all aspects of the flight broken into 5 segments. Boris, another day at the office for you, but AvaitorInsight might enjoy.
KLM 737-800 AMS to LHR | JetstreamTV
 
What do the pilots think of the new LHR-PER route in terms of diverting in case of some kind of emergency - is Learmonth really the only alternate? How narrow a safety margin for fuel is this route likely to face (would winds ever be an issue?) and would it be on par with a trans-Pacific crossing?

Winds are always an issue, but, as the prevailing wind that the flight would see in the Indian Ocean is likely to be a westerly, I'd expect overall fuel to be less of an issue on the flights to Perth. There are many alternates along the overall route, and the 787 has more options available to it than the 380. The biggest issue will be that of the alternate to the destination. Perth is basically an isolated airport, and there aren't many runways nearby (within a few hundred kms). And those there are don't have much in the way of approach aids. Learmonth will certainly be used for planning, but is a long way off. Kalgoolie is also available. It's a long time since I had cause to look at it, but it was very limited for the 767. Europe is one big runway, so plenty of options there.

Compared to the Pacific, it's probably not that much different to the flight to the USA, in that there's not much around for the last couple of thousand miles, but it's the same in being the non fuel critical direction. The reverse journey throws up about 10 380 capable airports in the last few hours...even more for a light twin.
 
Crikey, you guys would be absolutely knackered at the end, being more or less awake for the length of time. And I thought that my 12hr nightshifts were rough...

Fatigue is an issue that is given lots of words, and very little action, across the vast majority of the industry. Incredibly long flights that start just as you're ready to go to sleep at night are the norm. Airline managements are reluctant to install decent crew rest facilities. Our 380s are a standout for their excellent crew rest, where it is possible to actually get some sleep. But the norm is much closer to a case of "required to install a crew rest, but the rules say nothing about you actually being able to sleep in in". The old 767 rest was a good example of the latter.

The sky is full of aircraft being flown by pilots who are so tired that they'd be deadly on the roads.

Beyond that, you also have to ask how sensible any crew rest design is that has the Captain 50 meters away from the coughpit.

Basically, if you feel like rubbish getting on to the aircraft...the crew probably feel the same. And that's just at the start of the journey.
 
The sky is full of aircraft being flown by pilots who are so tired that they'd be deadly on the roads.

When I finish a nightshift (12hrs) the drive home is a slow one. For me, it's 10 mins. There are guys who live up to an hour away. How they manage the drive home is beyond me.

If you're flying out at night are you able to get any sleep beforehand? If so, how do you manage it?
 
Read our AFF credit card guides and start earning more points now.

AFF Supporters can remove this and all advertisements

If you're flying out at night are you able to get any sleep beforehand? If so, how do you manage it?

It depends upon your body time zone. Generally, if you leave your local zone at midnight, you'll have had zero sleep. At the other end of the journey, you might have managed an almost normal one. We hate hotel guests and staff who make unnecessary noise, as trying to sleep during daylight is the norm. You don't actually have to slam every door, nor have loud conversations in the halls.

The worldwide method of solving the fatigue problem is to make a rule that says 'don't fly fatigued'. Problem solved.
 
It depends upon your body time zone. Generally, if you leave your local zone at midnight, you'll have had zero sleep. At the other end of the journey, you might have managed an almost normal one. We hate hotel guests and staff who make unnecessary noise, as trying to sleep during daylight is the norm. You don't actually have to slam every door, nor have loud conversations in the halls.

The worldwide method of solving the fatigue problem is to make a rule that says 'don't fly fatigued'. Problem solved.

And have no career repercussions if you do say I am fatigued?
 
Looking at several pilots forums, the common thread is fatigue management and what management do(or don't) to reduce it. Seems the big fatigue enhancer is the rosters not having sufficient "good rest" time between them. While most airlines "encourage" pilots to nominate if they are too tired to operate the flight, but the ramifications for these pilots convinces them to call in sick for a few days. This is more so when pilots like JB are operating both directions of the equator.. YMML-OMDB-EGLL Then EGLL-OMDB-YMML. And then just to balance the time clock...YMML-KLAX-YMML thrown in for good measure.

JB, how many days off does it take you to "normalise" you time clock..if you ever do. I did one each of the three flights over a four week period, up the front as well, and my sleeping clock was all over the place for 2 weeks+ when I returned. And then for you to set off again when your clock is not yet re-balanced back to Melbourne time must mean you build up more fatigue quicker each cycle..Not a good thing, considering what you do.

Seems false economy for your employers as they spend zillions training you, then seem to go out of their way to burn you out and put their multi million dollar aircraft at risk...not to mention us pax...
 
Looking at several pilots forums, the common thread is fatigue management and what management do(or don't) to reduce it. Seems the big fatigue enhancer is the rosters not having sufficient "good rest" time between them. While most airlines "encourage" pilots to nominate if they are too tired to operate the flight, but the ramifications for these pilots convinces them to call in sick for a few days. This is more so when pilots like JB are operating both directions of the equator.. YMML-OMDB-EGLL Then EGLL-OMDB-YMML. And then just to balance the time clock...YMML-KLAX-YMML thrown in for good measure.

JB, how many days off does it take you to "normalise" you time clock..if you ever do. I did one each of the three flights over a four week period, up the front as well, and my sleeping clock was all over the place for 2 weeks+ when I returned. And then for you to set off again when your clock is not yet re-balanced back to Melbourne time must mean you build up more fatigue quicker each cycle..Not a good thing, considering what you do.

Generally long haul trips are separated by sufficient time to recover; to a degree at least. Sims can be the fly in the ointment, having a nasty habit of happening right in the middle of any break. At the moment they aren't counted as flying hours, but as they can happen at any time of the day, and are more draining than the real thing, perhaps they should be. When on leave it's amazing how good you start to feel, just about the time you have to go back to work. So, I guess it takes weeks to get over the coughulative effects.

Some flights are worse than others. Oz/USA is actually not bad at all, and I find I recover within a day or two. Flights in the other direction take about 4 days to get over. I find the 9/10 is easier than the 1/2. In days past, I did a lot of the 29/30 via HK, and found that routing to be quite good.

I think the most tiring flying that I've ever done was the 767 domestic operation. Right now, just about every time I set foot in an aircraft, I'll get about 15 hours of flying. That limits the number of days that I can work in any month dramatically (100 hours/30 days). Domestic flying gave a fraction of those hours, so you were at work much more often. Domestic days also include hours of dead time (i.e. between flights/pre-flight, etc), where you may well working, but not actually accruing any flying hours. And, of course, they don't have heavy crews.

The regulators (around the world) have dropped the ball on this. Handing fatigue management over to the companies will not result in positive outcomes, but that's pretty much what has happened. FRMS systems are seen as a way of making people work harder, as there won't be the defined rules that there are now.

If pilots actually pulled the pin every time they'd had no sleep prior to a duty, there'd be bugger all flights. Where you have a good crew rest, and a heavy crew, there's ways to manage this. But not everyone has that luxury.
 
Some flights are worse than others. Oz/USA is actually not bad at all, and I find I recover within a day or two. Flights in the other direction take about 4 days to get over. I find the 9/10 is easier than the 1/2. In days past, I did a lot of the 29/30 via HK, and found that routing to be quite good.

I agree, I find the LAX flights very easy to stay on Australian time. Going to AUH (although not for much longer) I find knocks me around for a good 3 - 4 days after.

What also hurts is I'm operating VA1 tomorrow come back 3 days off, up to BNE for the sim (Instrument Rating renewal) come back, 3 days off, LAX again, 3 days off, then AUH. The first part won't be so bad, it's the going from SYD-LAX-SYD-AUH-SYD in 11 days that will get to me. Luckily my flying will be up for the 30 days after that trip and I'll have some time off to recover.
 
I agree, I find the LAX flights very easy to stay on Australian time. Going to AUH (although not for much longer) I find knocks me around for a good 3 - 4 days after.

What also hurts is I'm operating VA1 tomorrow come back 3 days off, up to BNE for the sim (Instrument Rating renewal) come back, 3 days off, LAX again, 3 days off, then AUH. The first part won't be so bad, it's the going from SYD-LAX-SYD-AUH-SYD in 11 days that will get to me. Luckily my flying will be up for the 30 days after that trip and I'll have some time off to recover.

There seems to be two distinct types of commercial flying:
Long Distance international where you are constantly hopping time/date zones, but have long cruise periods, but then at the end of a long flight, have to perform an approach and landing.
Short distance, where you probably remain within your time/date zone, but you have many repetitions and cycles and lots of take off and approaches.

Both work similar hours, but in different ways and both groups have the fatigue issue almost as "it goes with the job" type of thing. Strange how many occupations have their working/duty hours mandated to some scientific fatigue reduced basis, while other seem to be ignored. As the occupation of a pilot is some what special..you can't simply say, enough, we will pull over for a sleep or stop to work out what wrong. You are committed to be there and be at the top of your game. Sure the long distance guys may have a second crew, but they could be equally tired.
 
Last edited:
I agree, I find the LAX flights very easy to stay on Australian time. Going to AUH (although not for much longer) I find knocks me around for a good 3 - 4 days after. .

I did BNE-AUH-IAD earlier this year (in F no less) and didn't fully recover my entire 4 week trip. A crying baby on the second leg resulting in no sleep didn't help but it probably didn't make a huge difference.
 
I did BNE-AUH-IAD earlier this year (in F no less) and didn't fully recover my entire 4 week trip. A crying baby on the second leg resulting in no sleep didn't help but it probably didn't make a huge difference.

We have the same problem in crew rest. The bunks aren't sound proof, so we often get woken up by people slamming the overhead lockers right underneath our heads, cabin crew putting away carts, and crying babies too.

I do use ear plugs, but even then it still isn't a solid sleep. I'll remove the ear plugs about half way through to avoid sleep inertia (I can sometimes feel worse waking up after only 4hrs between 2am and 6am) and just get little bursts of sleep. Usually about 30min blocks.

Then once I get home have a nice sleep (1-2hrs) to get me through the day. This then allows me to slip into my routine easier.
 
Do either of you wear FitBits or equivalent to track whether you are getting sleep?

I personally don't but that's because I know when I'm tired and I'll take measures accordingly to combat fatigue. Everybody is different. I personally like the first rest of the flight so for the last little bit I can wake up, have a coffee and have something to eat, all things that help with staying alert. However some people prefer the second rest because they like to get into a deep sleep and wake up and land. Each to their own.
 
We have the same problem in crew rest. The bunks aren't sound proof, so we often get woken up by people slamming the overhead lockers right underneath our heads, cabin crew putting away carts, and crying babies too.

The forward crew rests in the A380 are tremendous. Actually quiet, you can sleep in them. The 747 had a good attempt at it, but crew accessing the coughpit, and any chimes, could easily be heard. I'm very anti any rest that removes the Captain/FO from the vicinity of the coughpit.

The 767 was terrible. Passengers used to think it was a toilet and would try to force their way in. Plus it was right next to the bassinets. That was an issue we tried to sort out for years, and it was only resolved when someone parked an aircraft mid journey because a screaming child was stopping any of the crew getting any rest.

I do use ear plugs, but even then it still isn't a solid sleep. I'll remove the ear plugs about half way through to avoid sleep inertia (I can sometimes feel worse waking up after only 4hrs between 2am and 6am) and just get little bursts of sleep. Usually about 30min blocks.

We vary the timing of the breaks depending upon who is doing the sector, and who managed to get some sleep before departure. There is no point being in the rest if you can't sleep.
 
Do either of you wear FitBits or equivalent to track whether you are getting sleep?

I wear an Apple watch...but it's on charge when I'm trying to sleep. I don't really see the point. If I feel like pooh, then I probably haven't slept.
 
The forward crew rests in the A380 are tremendous. Actually quiet, you can sleep in them. The 747 had a good attempt at it, but crew accessing the coughpit, and any chimes, could easily be heard. I'm very anti any rest that removes the Captain/FO from the vicinity of the coughpit.

The 767 was terrible. Passengers used to think it was a toilet and would try to force their way in. Plus it was right next to the bassinets. That was an issue we tried to sort out for years, and it was only resolved when someone parked an aircraft mid journey because a screaming child was stopping any of the crew getting any rest.

Yeah I can imagine not going far from the coughpit would help. I have had a situation where I would be on rest with the captain and we would need to sort out an issue back in the flight deck so we would get up, get dressed, and try and make our way up to the flight deck. Passengers do think that CREW ONLY means toilet and so the door would try to open (although keypad locked) and a member of the cabin crew need to direct them to the actual toilet further up.




We vary the timing of the breaks depending upon who is doing the sector, and who managed to get some sleep before departure. There is no point being in the rest if you can't sleep.

We break up the rest into 4 parts. Usually equally on the way over to LAX being a "day" flight unless someone didn't get enough rest the night before then vary it accordingly. On the way home we would split it up by having 2 short breaks (enough for a movie/dinner/wind down/maybe a little 20min power nap) followed by 2 long breaks. We determine the rest before sign off in LAX for the way home so people know how to schedule their sleep accordingly while on the layover.
 
While on the subject of fatigue, is there any equivalent of a train's 'dead man' vigilance device in aircraft?
 

Become an AFF member!

Join Australian Frequent Flyer (AFF) for free and unlock insider tips, exclusive deals, and global meetups with 65,000+ frequent flyers.

AFF members can also access our Frequent Flyer Training courses, and upgrade to Fast-track your way to expert traveller status and unlock even more exclusive discounts!

AFF forum abbreviations

Wondering about Y, J or any of the other abbreviations used on our forum?

Check out our guide to common AFF acronyms & abbreviations.
Back
Top