Ask The Pilot

[jb747]

While on the subject of fatigue, is there any equivalent of a train's 'dead man' vigilance device in aircraft?

According to the manual, the master caution would go off if nothing was touched for a long period (20 minutes?) in the Boeings. I've never even heard of it happening though.

It wouldn't improve vigilance though...just stir you up for a second!

 

[jb747]

We break up the rest into 4 parts. Usually equally on the way over to LAX being a "day" flight unless someone didn't get enough rest the night before then vary it accordingly. On the way home we would split it up by having 2 short breaks (enough for a movie/dinner/wind down/maybe a little 20min power nap) followed by 2 long breaks. We determine the rest before sign off in LAX for the way home so people know how to schedule their sleep accordingly while on the layover.

Most of us don't use a fixed system for the breaks. On the way to LA, with that same 'day' thought in mind, 3 breaks were often used, with them becoming progressively longer. The return journey will often be 2, but if someone managed a good sleep (and this applies on the Dubai flights too), it may just be split in half.

 

[AviatorInsight]

While on the subject of fatigue, is there any equivalent of a train's 'dead man' vigilance device in aircraft?

Just to add to JB's post. Yes the B777 has a Crew Alterness Monitor. The FMC continuously monitors switch action on the MCP, EFIS control panel, display select panel, CDUs, and radio transmitter microphone switches. After 15mins has gone past with none of these switches pushed, a PILOT RESPONSE advisory message appears (no sound, just a message appears on the EICAS). 5mins after that the Master Caution will go off. After a further 5mins and the Master Warning will activate. Pushing ANY of the monitored switches will cancel the message.

I have only ever had the advisory message display on a couple of occasions over the Pacific when there was little to do.

 

[N860CR]

Just to add to JB's post. Yes the B777 has a Crew Alterness Monitor. The FMC continuously monitors switch action on the MCP, EFIS control panel, display select panel, CDUs, and radio transmitter microphone switches. After 15mins has gone past with none of these switches pushed, a PILOT RESPONSE advisory message appears (no sound, just a message appears on the EICAS). 5mins after that the Master Caution will go off. After a further 5mins and the Master Warning will activate. Pushing ANY of the monitored switches will cancel the message.

I have only ever had the advisory message display on a couple of occasions over the Pacific when there was little to do.

Only a couple of occasions? Now I feel somewhat more negligent!

 

[Melburnian1]

We hate hotel guests and staff who make unnecessary noise, as trying to sleep during daylight is the norm. You don't actually have to slam every door, nor have loud conversations in the halls.

Would not one at least partial solution, irrespective of the hotel in which you are in, for an airline like QF or VA to insist always that the pilots and second officers receive rooms at the far end of a hallway on a higher floor, as far away from the lift(s) (and other guests) as possible?

This may not be perfect (and some hotels may unhelpfully have room attendants' storerooms, or 'emergency' stairs, next to the end of a hallway or close to it), but it might minimise incredibly annoying chatter from room attendants and loud door banging from other guests. Works well for me: I insist on it, and nine times out of 10 if pre requested hotels meet the request.

I am assuming that every hotel in which such staff stay is a multi floor one - some may not be.

 

[jb747]

Would not one at least partial solution, irrespective of the hotel in which you are in, for an airline like QF or VA to insist always that the pilots and second officers receive rooms at the far end of a hallway on a higher floor, as far away from the lift(s) (and other guests) as possible?

Some hotels have actually gone as far as allocating us a particular wing. Sadly the cleaning staff still slam those doors. And remember that people who are 'normal' guests are probably paying more than the airline for the room, and they'd like a quiet room too (sometimes).

Possibly the worst hotel guest is the bloke who goes into the corridor to have his mobile phone conversation!

 

[Flashback]

What do you think of experiences like this? Looks like great fun, but certainly not cheap :shock:

 

[JohnM]

What do you think of experiences like this? Looks like great fun, but certainly not cheap :shock:

Phwoar! - one Powerball and I'm off to the Edge of Space .

 

[bryanjones]

According to the manual, the master caution would go off if nothing was touched for a long period (20 minutes?) in the Boeings. I've never even heard of it happening though.

It wouldn't improve vigilance though...just stir you up for a second!

Many high end physical security systems also have this to stop the guards going to sleep

 

[jb747]

What do you think of experiences like this? Looks like great fun, but certainly not cheap :shock:

If you've got the $ to spare it would be a great ride.

My rules for any flight like this: if it was fitted with ejection seats when flown by the military, they MUST still be live. In this case it looks like they are. All of the Aussie jet rides are not.

If it advertises a ride in a 'fighter', then it cannot be a trainer (i.e. no L39, Macchi, Provost, etc).

9G is not comfortable or fun. These aircraft are violent by nature, and as such, I expect most passengers will get to see their breakfast.

But, if you feel like donating the Euros to me, I'd be happy to give a personal report.

 

[JohnM]

If you've got the $ to spare it would be a great ride.

My rules for any flight like this: if it was fitted with ejection seats when flown by the military, they MUST still be live. In this case it looks like they are. All of the Aussie jet rides are not.

If it advertises a ride in a 'fighter', then it cannot be a trainer (i.e. no L39, Macchi, Provost, etc).

9G is not comfortable or fun. These aircraft are violent by nature, and as such, I expect most passengers will get to see their breakfast.

But, if you feel like donating the Euros to me, I'd be happy to give a personal report.

Time for an AFF crowdfunding campaign .

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Might have been asked and answered already on here, but where can I find flight path, ie (*TARAL Y59*) etc.
Keen on knowing the turning points on flights from ADL to SYD, sometimes my plane comes in 16R/34L but never seems to use 07/25.
Or is it a closely guarded secret only known and available to pilots.
Not going to do anything stupid.
Ta.
Edit: ah, never mind, found it.
www.waypoint.ws

 

[jb747]

Might have been asked and answered already on here, but where can I find flight path, ie (*TARAL Y59*) etc.
Keen on knowing the turning points on flights from ADL to SYD, sometimes my plane comes in 16R/34L but never seems to use 07/25.

The Air Services Australia sites would be a good place to start.

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/aip.asp

Airservices Australia AIS - DAP 149 - Aerodrome & Procedure Charts

You need to consider your flight in a number of stages.
1. Departing Adelaide, there will be the SID. That will get you from whatever runway is in use to the start of the actual route.
2. The route itself. That's where Y59, etc. come in.
3. The STAR...which gets you from a point near the end of the planned route to the start of an approach to the runway(s) in use.
4. Approach...that last little bit, from about 10 miles to the ground.

16/34 or 07/25 is decided by the wind (in most cases anyway).

The flight plan never specifies runways. They're a variable. It just goes from Adelaide to Sydney. STARs, SIDs and approaches are added by ATC and the crew as needed.

Or is it a closely guarded secret only known and available to pilots.

All of the information regarding airways, turning points, STARs, SIDs and approaches is readily available.

www.waypoint.ws

To quote Westworld..."that doesn't look like anything to me".

 

[AustraliaPoochie]

Thanks, Jb747.
TARAL is Taralga, eh?
So, the route of my flight can change should something arise.
Its so interesting to know, for eg, what pilots can do with the planes, the banking turn angles on approach to SYD, etc.
Ie, from CHC, the 777 I took took many banking turns to come down to arrive into 34L last year.
Will check up the Air Services link you provided too.

 

[jb747]

Thanks, Jb747.
TARAL is Taralga, eh?

As far as flying is concerned TARAL is just a 5 letter waypoint. Until you mentioned it, I'd never considered that it probably sits over Taralga.

So, the route of my flight can change should something arise.

They can change for lots of reasons. Sometimes a minor change, and at others you'll change to something that bears no relationship to the original. Weather, congestion, convenience. Lots of reasons. Some are initiated at the company flight planning level. Sometimes we'll see that a different route might give us a better feed in to the arrival, so we ask ATC for the change. Short term changes are just arranged with your current controller, whilst a bigger change may require a new plan to be placed into the system.

Its so interesting to know, for eg, what pilots can do with the planes, the banking turn angles on approach to SYD, etc..

Mostly the autopilot is engaged, but the maximum bank angle that you'll see used is 30º. Generally about 20º.

Ie, from CHC, the 777 I took took many banking turns to come down to arrive into 34L last year.

You wouldn't like a non banking turn.

 

[mjt57]

You wouldn't like a non banking turn.

OK, I'll bite. Why not?

 

[eric2011]

OK, I'll bite. Why not?

Imagine riding a push bike fast around a corner without "laying" it over a bit

 

[jb747]

OK, I'll bite. Why not?

When an aircraft is in level flight, there must always be a component of lift equal to the weight of the aircraft that's pointed vertically away from the ground. If I roll to 45º angle of bank, I'm can resolve the lift vector into two components that point away from the ground, and into the direction of the bank. At 45º they're equal, both at 68% of the lift component. But, as I've said that I need make a vertical component equal to the weight to stay level, that means that I'm no longer producing enough overall lift. To increase the lift component sufficiently, I'll actually need to make 1.47 times as much lift (i.e. pulling 'g'), which will leave equal components of 1g, both vertically and into the bank. The 'g' that's our component into the bank is what makes the aircraft turn. Within the aircraft though, we'll simply feel a bit heavier, as the 'g' we experience remains pointed at the floor.

G required for a level turn vs bank angle:
20º 1.06g
30º 1.15g
45º 1.47g
60º 2.00g
70º 2.92g
80º 5.76g
84º 9.56g

The "g" is equal to 1/cos(bank angle).

Looking at the way the g builds up, you can see why turns don't exceed 30º angle of bank.

So, could we turn without banking? Sort of. We'd still have to generate a force into the direction that we want to go. The only way that could be done would be to use rudder to point the aircraft. That would generate a force ACROSS the cabin. Everyone is used to having things fall to the floor, but having them go sideways (including yourself) would be disconcerting, uncomfortable, and dangerous. Added to that the fact that we couldn't generate sufficient force to have the turn happen any time soon, or that the tail would quickly over-stress and fall off.

The rudder isn't used to turn the aircraft, but rather to keep it pointed into the airflow. They're large so that we can generate the force needed when an engine fails. The only time you should experience a rudder only turn, is during a crosswind landing, when rudder is used in the last couple of seconds to point the aircraft out of the airflow but down the runway.

 

[Major]

Last Wed I noticed a lot of 737/320 and smaller aircraft landing on 16R at SYD. Most of the time you would see them landing on 16L.

At Airports with parallel runway operations how far in advance do ATC inform you of the L or R runway ?

 

[RooFlyer]

On a related theme, why do aircraft (I guess I mean large commercial ones), when wanting to do (say) a left banking turn, first turn right for a short time (such that the path resembles the question mark at the end of this sentence) ?