Ask The Pilot

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Obviously we're all reading whatever we can find about the MAX, and other Boeing aircraft, in the light of events of the last couple of days. I must admit that I find myself conflicted in my feeling for Boeing. The 747 and 767 were awesome aircraft, with incredible records over a long period. The 777 is a wonderful machine, and I really wish QF had gone that way back around 2000.

The 737 though, is really a relic. Every time I've ridden in the coughpit of one, I've been left wondering what era I'm in. Boeing's failure to properly update the coughpit has left mix of items that would have been familiar to a pilot in 1963...mixed with fancy new tech. The great god, commonality, was supposedly the reason for this design stasis, but they would have been so much better off if they'd told Southwest to go jump. Now we are seeing software fixes on an aircraft that is pre FBW...the kludges continue.

Spot on JB. I too am conflicted. The 777 is a masterpiece in my opinion. Was a pleasure to ride in and whatever flying I could get in the climb/descent. The 737 however is definitely a love/hate relationship. I love the robust characteristics (it can definitely take the poundings of some of my landings) and the fact that I have now flown a piece of history. I love how it still has that old school feeling to it. The entire nose section is off a 707, the throttle quadrant is also from the 707 and there's even cutouts in the overhead panel where the ammeters used be... from the B-17!

Having said that, with the way technology is rapidly changing and growing, so too must the aircraft. There's a lot of things that the current NG does where I've had to disconnect everything and re-engage it. The aircraft almost seems like it's confused with the automatics. It has long been said that the 777 components overhead panel/EICAS and MFD can actually be fitted into the 737. It's a rumour at this stage that that's what the next next gen(?) will become.
 
Storms in Sydney and the planes on this pic are all inbound to SYD - most in holding patterns. Why then would the highlighted flight from Canberra take off with 20+ planes ahead of it in the queue?
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Yes it does. What is known as flap load relief. It retracts the flaps to the next lowest position. It arms at flap 30 and 40 on the NG and from flap 10 - 40 on a short field performance equipped 737 (which VA have a number of).

So flap 30 retracts to 25 if speed exceeds 176kts and re extends at 171kts.
 
What benefit does a 737 obtain from higher thrust engines. Is it greater speed? Is it greater payload? Do the engine manufacturers get more money by selling higher thrust? From what I am reading the 737 MAX is over engined for the design of its airframe/wings and rather than embarking on an extensive re design Boeing chose to fit compensating software. Just like in a modern motor car software relies on sensors and I believe that a failure in this area may have caused the two tragic crashes of an aircraft which has proven to be almost indestructible.
 
It’s an aircraft with a bit of extra kit on it to assist in landing on shorter strips.

The two big ticket items for an SFP aircraft are:
- flight spoilers deflect 60° on touchdown improving braking.
- reduction of engine idle thrust delay time from 5-2 sec
 
@AviatorInsight

Does the 737 auto-retract wing flaps when certain IAS thresholds are exceeded? Thanks in advance

All of the airliners I've flown have some sort of 'load relief'. Basically you'll get a single stage retraction of the flaps when you have a slight overspeed, but only in the most extreme landing flap settings.

The 380 did have an automated extension, and retraction, system as part of its first stage of flap. In that case the pilot selection of flap 1, actually moved the slats only, with the automated system adding a small motion of the flaps as the lower speed limit was crossed. It had no control over the pilots' selection of the slats though.

I presume from your question you're actually asking whether an automated retraction of the flaps could have activated the MCAS on the accident 737s. The system is not able to retract the flaps other than mentioned above...and it will do nothing other than setting off a warning if you do overspeed the flap. Automatic thrust reduction will kick into play, if the power has been reduced from it's take off setting, but it otherwise is locked at the setting used to take off (obviously to eliminate the chance of an accidental reduction during the take off).
 
What benefit does a 737 obtain from higher thrust engines. Is it greater speed? Is it greater payload? Do the engine manufacturers get more money by selling higher thrust? From what I am reading the 737 MAX is over engined for the design of its airframe/wings and rather than embarking on an extensive re design Boeing chose to fit compensating software. Just like in a modern motor car software relies on sensors and I believe that a failure in this area may have caused the two tragic crashes of an aircraft which has proven to be almost indestructible.

Higher payload is the main reason we use a higher thrust setting. Different aircraft have different maximum thrust ratings. We normally use a 24k thrust rating. When the aircraft is fitted with 26k we will use it only when operationally required (payload, expecting wind shear, short runway, hot day, etc). If it's not fitted with 26k then we will need to offload bags/cargo in order to depart. The Max will have a 25k rating on it. I don't know whether that will become our normal thrust setting, or if we only use it if we absolutely have to.

IMG_6555.jpg

I took this photo yesterday in YFK (24k maximum thrust rated engines and an SFP). Side note, we never use 22k in the -800. the -700 is maximum 22k rated and we always use that. Which is why it's so much like a sports car.
 
What benefit does a 737 obtain from higher thrust engines. Is it greater speed? Is it greater payload?

Any aircraft, if given more thrust, will have better take off and climb performance. It will be able to climb to higher levels earlier in a flight (note, not higher levels, just the same high levels earlier). As some of the weight limitations are defined by climb gradients, then those weights may increase, but it won't necessarily increase the max weights unless engineered to do so. You'll also have much better go around performance, and it may (but not necessarily) improve engine out performance. At the same time, it may make Vmcg/mcg higher (V minimum control speeds).

These particular engines combine more thrust with much better fuel burn, so combine that with the ability to get higher earlier, and you should dramatically reduce your fuel consumption.

Do the engine manufacturers get more money by selling higher thrust?

If you are leasing your engines (as more and more do) then use of higher thrust will cost more, so it's a trade off of the cost versus the saving. If you buy, then it will cost more, and your engines almost certainly will have higher maintenance and life cycle costs. Just like a high performance car versus it's slower siblings. The makes aren't blindly making engines with more thrust to sell for more dollars though. Getting a thrust gain whilst increasing fuel economy is an immensely expensive enterprise, involving some amazing technologies. The aircraft makers come up with a design, and then get the engine people to make them an engine for the job.

From what I am reading the 737 MAX is over engined for the design of its airframe/wings and rather than embarking on an extensive re design Boeing chose to fit compensating software.

Not really, in the sense of too much thrust. The issue with the 737 is that when it was designed by stone age man, he decided to have it sit very low to the ground, and stuck two very thin turbo jets under the wings. Over the years engine design moved on, and they are now much fatter, meaning that they just don't fit into the space between the wing and the ground. So, to mount the engines away, they need to move them up, but there simply isn't room before you run into the wing. So, the solution is to move them forward, which has the effect of moving the thrust and drag couple. It also has the effect of creating a lift component on the nacelle, which is what is causing the issues at high alpha. This is well beyond redesign, you need a totally new aircraft. The engines are a squeeze on the A321NEO, and the 320 family has always had much better engine clearance.

Just like in a modern motor car software relies on sensors and I believe that a failure in this area may have caused the two tragic crashes of an aircraft which has proven to be almost indestructible.

Believe is a terrible word in relation to aircraft accidents. There's theories, and proof, but not belief.

Aircraft will always rely on sensors, and as they move towards a totally FBW world, they will do so more, not less. The issue here is not enough sensors, and software that was so poorly written that it relied on a single sensor, and was not smart enough to be able to differentiate between good and bad data. Of course, that is only true if we're seeing something related to MCAS again...so it's only a theory.
 
Apologies for using the word believe. I pondered over the use and I should have used a more appropriator word.
My question relates to the angle of attack (AOA) sensors. Is it true that the airbus uses three AOA sensors therefore allowing for redundancy if the computers decide (after suitable "debate") that the data they are receiving is erroneous from one of the sensors and it can then be replaced with the spare. In the case of the Boeing 737 only two AOA sensors are fitted and therefore if one goes faulty there is only one left so 50% of the flight control data is lost and there is no redundancy factor.
 
My question relates to the angle of attack (AOA) sensors. Is it true that the airbus uses three AOA sensors therefore allowing for redundancy if the computers decide (after suitable "debate") that the data they are receiving is erroneous from one of the sensors and it can then be replaced with the spare. In the case of the Boeing 737 only two AOA sensors are fitted and therefore if one goes faulty there is only one left so 50% of the flight control data is lost and there is no redundancy factor.

Airbus use 3 sensors, but then so do Boeing...on their other types. Systems don't necessarily vote all of the time, but they'll quickly pick a difference, and warn of it, or switch to a reversionary mode. Even in a triplicated system, things can go wrong, (i.e. QF72), but that system quickly picked the error and reverted to another flight law that was appropriate to the confused AoA readings.

Angle of attack can be checked in a number of ways. The performance the aircraft is generating, i.e. rate of climb/descent, airspeed, pitch rate, power setting can all be used to decide whether an AoA reading is correct, so even with a dual system, there is no reason to allow a single AoA reading to have this sort (MCAS) control.
 
Airbus use 3 sensors, but then so do Boeing...on their other types. Systems don't necessarily vote all of the time, but they'll quickly pick a difference, and warn of it, or switch to a reversionary mode. Even in a triplicated system, things can go wrong, (i.e. QF72), but that system quickly picked the error and reverted to another flight law that was appropriate to the confused AoA readings.

Angle of attack can be checked in a number of ways. The performance the aircraft is generating, i.e. rate of climb/descent, airspeed, pitch rate, power setting can all be used to decide whether an AoA reading is correct, so even with a dual system, there is no reason to allow a single AoA reading to have this sort (MCAS) control.

Would an AOA DISAGREE alert have helped? I gather it is optional in the MAX, and Lion doen't have it, while American, et al, do.
 
Would an AOA DISAGREE alert have helped? I gather it is optional in the MAX, and Lion doen't have it, while American, et al, do.

Good question, but no, it wouldn't have helped. The alert only shows that the AoA values disagree by more than 10º for more than 10 continuous seconds. The checklist then refers that it may be accompanied by an IAS DISAGREE or ALT DISAGREE alert and then to do the relevant checklist if it shows (which then goes into more detail).
 
I saw reference to the added extra (do you want fries with that?) also has two AOA indicators, one at each seat.

Otherwise (No fries) ... there is only one.
 
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I saw reference to the added extra (do you want fries with that?) also has two AOA indicators, one at each seat.

Otherwise (No fries) ... there is only one.

We don't even have any AoA indicators in our config. Just the alert to let us know when there's a disagreement.
 
Would an AOA DISAGREE alert have helped? I gather it is optional in the MAX, and Lion doen't have it, while American, et al, do.

Alert or warning, probably not. For it to be of any value, it should immediately, automatically, disable any functions like MCAS, that use AoA inputs.


I saw reference to the added extra (do you want fries with that?) also has two AOA indicators, one at each seat.

Otherwise (No fries) ... there is only one.

I think you'll find that there's always two systems, but there's no need for either to be displayed. AoA can be quite useful in the unreliable airspeed case, if you've been taught how to fly using it. You don't need IAS at all to fly an accurate approach with it. But, a display per se...just about useless.
 
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We don't even have any AoA indicators in our config. Just the alert to let us know when there's a disagreement.
Maybe that's what I misunderstood.
I saw reference to the added extra (do you want fries with that?) also has two AOA indicators, one at each seat.

Otherwise (No fries) ... there is only one.
OK, here's something referring to what I meant re Value Add (AKA, Fries): (Trevor Sumner on Twitter)
Boeing sells an option package that includes an extra AoA vane, and an AoA disagree light, which lets pilots know that this problem was happening. Both 737MAXes that crashed were delivered without this option. No 737MAX with this option has ever crashed.
 

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