Ask The Pilot

[AviatorInsight]

So where do they get the practice apart from the SIM?

They don’t.

Yes so is that backseat SO time more a career strategic job as such? As in take it and expect progression later on.

Or is it more a CASA box ticking exercise, and bean counters chasing a wage saving? Instead of a Captain and two FOs, one Captain, FO, SO. Jetstar do this long haul on the 787 (they used to run two FOs to Hawaii back in the A330 days)

AV any SOs the 737?

None. The role of an SO is more for in flight relief at a cheaper rate. Other airlines have a full set of primary crew (Capt and FO) and they will take over the cruise part only then switch for landing.

So you’ll only find SOs or augmented crew on flights around the 8-9hr mark (well beyond 737 range) and beyond depending on government regulations, so you won’t see them on 737 ops.

 

[RooFlyer]

He's flared a bit too high, and so, it hasn't landed as soon as it should. I'd also wonder just when the power was pulled to idle. A delay can lead to this too. Ideally, you flare, squeeze it straight(er), drop the upwind wing a couple of degrees, and it should all happen over about 5 seconds. Once he's caught up in an extended flare, he can't take the drift off (in fact he increases it), so you're bound to end up with this sort of landing. He really should have gone around as soon as the extended flare happened, as the outcome was pretty much set in concrete at that point.

Some follow up, including what Etihad management said!! I think I can imagine your reaction to that, JB

Ouch: Etihad Criticizes A380 Pilots For Viral Crosswind Landing

A video went viral of an Etihad Airways A380 landing with strong crosswinds at Heathrow Airport. Aparently Etihad's pilot training department isn't happy.

onemileatatime.com

 

[jb747]

So where do they get the practice apart from the SIM?

Whilst they are SOs, only in the SIM. When they eventually get an FO slot, there will be plenty of practice during the course. Plus, they almost certainly won’t become FOs on the same type. The 737 is the stepping stone for almost all of them.

The issue with long haul is that there are very few landings and take offs to share around anyway.

 

[ChrisGibbs]

Four people killed in mid-air collision between two aircraft in Victoria

Four people killed as two planes collide mid-air at Mangalore airport in regional Victoria

www.theguardian.com

An unfortunate accident at Mangalore between two light twins. Its been way too many years since I did my IFR training in one of the aircraft in the accident VH-JQF PA-44 Seminole. I assume its still up to the pilots to arrange separation in a CTAF even when under IFR?

 

[AviatorInsight]

Four people killed in mid-air collision between two aircraft in Victoria

Four people killed as two planes collide mid-air at Mangalore airport in regional Victoria

www.theguardian.com

An unfortunate accident at Mangalore between two light twins. Its been way too many years since I did my IFR training in one of the aircraft in the accident VH-JQF PA-44 Seminole. I assume its still up to the pilots to arrange separation in a CTAF even when under IFR?

Absolutely. This is the problem RPT aircraft are having with class G airspace. Places with with higher traffic volumes (Ballina, Ayers Rock) have a traffic information service but they do not provide separation. Whereas Mildura, you’re on your own below FL180.

I should add though, if conditions were VMC (ie not in cloud) then the responsibility for see and avoid still exists and proper radio communications are essential.

 

[jb747]

I should add though, if conditions were VMC (ie not in cloud) then the responsibility for see and avoid still exists and proper radio communications are essential.

No matter how carefully you look, you will always have accidents like this. The human eye itself has blind spots, and the aircraft are essentially one big blind spot. The vision from airliners is appalling in most directions.

 

[AviatorInsight]

No matter how carefully you look, you will always have accidents like this. The human eye itself has blind spots, and the aircraft are essentially one big blind spot. The vision from airliners is appalling in most directions.

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't at least try to look. This is why I fly most of the circuit on the autopilot, because it reduces my workload and I can spend a bit more time looking outside for old mate in his Jabiru who's not even on the right frequency.

 

[flyer89]

This is why I fly most of the circuit on the autopilot, because it reduces my workload and I can spend a bit more time looking outside for old mate in his Jabiru who's not even on the right frequency.

Or has no interest in being on ANY frequency.

 

[RSD]

Or has no interest in being on ANY frequency.

A year or two back a bizjet in the U.S. flying into a regional airport didn't even bother switiching to the CTAF frequency when coming into land and demolished a Cessna on the runway killing the two occupants.

 

[RSD]

Four people killed in mid-air collision between two aircraft in Victoria

Four people killed as two planes collide mid-air at Mangalore airport in regional Victoria

www.theguardian.com

An unfortunate accident at Mangalore between two light twins. Its been way too many years since I did my IFR training in one of the aircraft in the accident VH-JQF PA-44 Seminole. I assume its still up to the pilots to arrange separation in a CTAF even when under IFR?

A very sad day for a lt of people - knew both of the pilots in the Beechcraft fromTyabb that was involved in the incident.

 

[Saab34]

So how would you manage arriving at a Class G Airport with say half dozen buzzing around the circuit? I’ve seen a Jetstar A320 try to squeeze in at Ballina in something similar and the whole thing was just a giant clusterfuck. You could tell the Airbus guy was pissed, some were not sticking to CTAF circuit procedures around height.

Class G would it be easier in your 737 to just conduct a Straight in?

 

[flychrisfly]

Hi pilots, what do you do if a track is cut short on an arrival and it’s not planned or expected and you have too much energy?

 

[AviatorInsight]

So how would you manage arriving at a Class G Airport with say half dozen buzzing around the circuit? I’ve seen a Jetstar A320 try to squeeze in at Ballina in something similar and the whole thing was just a giant cluster****. You could tell the Airbus guy was pissed, some were not sticking to CTAF circuit procedures around height.

Class G would it be easier in your 737 to just conduct a Straight in?

Yeah it’s just a manage on the day kind of thing. I can’t for certain say I’d do this everytime because it’ll of course always be different.

For Ballina though, guys like to do the RNP approach. This is a curved approach that basically gets you onto a 5nm final. So I would try and fit in with the others asking if they’re able to extend downwind/upwind/insert leg here.

That’ll usually do it for most of the time.Mildura for instance doesn’t have that curved approach so to do the full RNAV (GPS based approach) then it’s out to about 15nm. Coming from MEL onto 09 it’s quicker to just join the circuit.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Hi pilots, what do you do if a track is cut short on an arrival and it’s not planned or expected and you have too much energy?

Depends how far out you are, outside the terminal area, I’ll speed up with idle thrust. This forces the nose down to gain that extra speed and increase rate of descent. If I need extra help I’ll pull the brakes out and that usually gets me back on profile where I can then reduce speed again.

Inside though, and around minimum clean speed (ie, no flap), I like to start pulling flap out, 1, 5, 10, and keep the speed at the up speed. This again forces the nose down with extra drag but keeps my speed from running away. If I need more help then dropping the gear is a great provider of drag. This tactic is useful for late night into SYD and we get given track shortening off the STAR to intercept the 34L ILS.

 

[flychrisfly]

Depends how far out you are, outside the terminal area, I’ll speed up with idle thrust. This forces the nose down to gain that extra speed and increase rate of descent. If I need extra help I’ll pull the brakes out and that usually gets me back on profile where I can then reduce speed again.

Inside though, and around minimum clean speed (ie, no flap), I like to start pulling flap out, 1, 5, 10, and keep the speed at the up speed. This again forces the nose down with extra drag but keeps my speed from running away. If I need more help then dropping the gear is a great provider of drag. This tactic is useful for late night into SYD and we get given track shortening off the STAR to intercept the 34L ILS.

Are you ever placed in a situation where you do not have enough time to lose the energy in order to make the landing?

 

[AviatorInsight]

Are you ever placed in a situation where you do not have enough time to lose the energy in order to make the landing?

I got close to giving away the approach the other night into PER but we managed to get stable by 1000ft. We were configured for Runway 21 and got given high speed on the descent. At 6000ft they said that Polair needed to cross the extended centreline and didn't know how long they would be so we would need to hold for 21. We got given a heading to intercept runway 24 from our position (10nm out!). They can make us work for it sometimes, the 737 (NG) is not the easiest to slow down, the classic was easier apparently.

But it’s simple, if it’s not going to work, go around and try again. No point lining up the holes in the Swiss cheese.

 

[jb747]

Hi pilots, what do you do if a track is cut short on an arrival and it’s not planned or expected and you have too much energy?

Good, you’re using the correct word. Energy. You can be too high, or too fast, but in both cases you have too much energy.

Airlines normally have a fixed point (call it 1,000’) at which you need to be in the normal ‘slot’. On the correct glidepath, correctly configured, and with normal power and speed. As that corresponds to 3 miles to run, it means that the effect of any track shortening has to be fixed in the distance left to run to that point.

In places where this sort of late shortening happens a lot, or where there tends to be an indeterminate base turn point (LAX 24R), you can prepare for it by being a bit slower than the normal profile (if ATC will allow it, which normally they don’t), by being as low as you can get away with, or by configuring earlier than usual and then using more power in the subsequent higher drag configuration.

You do learn to say no as well, I’ve knocked back track shortening many times. My advice to FOs was that if it crosses your mind that you need more drag (be it flap, speedbrake, or the gear), then you actually needed it 30 seconds ago. Also, don’t finesse things, i.e. don’t take partial speed brake because it’s nicer in the cabin. Take the lot, you can always put it back down again. Be prepared to take things out of the normal sequence. In the A380, the configuration sequence was flap 1, 2, landing gear, flap 3, and the flap full. As long as you’re below the speed limit, you can take the gear first, second, or third. Gear and speed brake work better at higher speeds, not lower. Flap is relatively ineffective as a drag source.

There are always two theories for anything. As a general rule, you should always kill the kinetic energy first. Diving height off, at relatively high speed, and then fixing the speed down low, is more likely to result in a go around, than levelling off, killing the excess speed, and then diving off the altitude in very dirty, but slow configuration.

 

[harvyk]

<snip> Also, don’t finesse things, i.e. don’t take partial speed brake because it’s nicer in the cabin. Take the lot, you can always put it back down again. Be prepared to take things out of the normal sequence. In the A380, the configuration sequence was flap 1, 2, landing gear, flap 3, and the flap full. As long as you’re below the speed limit, you can take the gear first, second, or third. Gear and speed brake work better at higher speeds, not lower. Flap is relatively ineffective as a drag source.
<snip>

I take it that treating the speed brake as either none or full is true in the 747 as well? Is that something that's standard procedure, or just something you like to do?

 

[flychrisfly]

Good, you’re using the correct word. Energy. You can be too high, or too fast, but in both cases you have too much energy.

I learnt from the best

 

[jb747]

I take it that treating the speed brake as either none or full is true in the 747 as well? Is that something that's standard procedure, or just something you like to do?

The speed brake can be set at any position in the 767/747/380, and I assume most airliners. Very small amounts of speed brake (barely cracked) were often used at high mach numbers in the 767, and to a lesser extent the 747, to keep it on the VNAV path, without having the speed rising above the programmed target. Around half gave a nice deceleration at the various speed gates, or for ATC requests. But, if you got into a vertical offset scenario, take the lot. You can always put it down once you have the profile under control, but if you try to finesse it, and end up not managing to do so, you’ll have given yourself an unnecessary go around.