Ask The Pilot

[AviatorInsight]

I think QF had gone totally iPad by about 2018. Log was actively shared in flight, and a completed one sent into the ether at the end.

That’s good to know! We can use an app for flight log stuff (which of course the FO fills out, even if pilot flying), but we still have to put the paper plan into an envelope at the end of every flight. Which is also the FO’s responsibility to carry enough envelopes, and take off data cards.

I‘m hoping Virgin can start making some money so we can invest in some of this technology, and give all our aircraft ACARS too.

 

[jb747]

That’s good to know! We can use an app for flight log stuff (which of course the FO fills out, even if pilot flying), but we still have to put the paper plan into an envelope at the end of every flight. Which is also the FO’s responsibility to carry enough envelopes, and take off data cards.

In QF, the paperwork (in flight) is done by the pilot not flying. An intermediate step for storing the logs post flight, which we used for a couple of years, was to take a photo or two of logs at the end of the flight, and to email them to a server. I doubt that they were ever looked at beyond that, but it was cheap and simple.

The current system is the end result of about three different software iterations. It started with PDFs, and is now an integrated app that holds everything, from NOTAMS to the logs. It allows anyone to actually complete log entries, and these can be synchronised to make up the complete log. NOTAMs can be prioritised, and it should have made it much simpler, but sadly the rubbish is still given too much priority, so it‘s not as helpful as it could be.

I‘m hoping Virgin can start making some money so we can invest in some of this technology, and give all our aircraft ACARS too.

How is it that some aircraft don’t have ACARS?

 

[AviatorInsight]

In QF, the paperwork (in flight) is done by the pilot not flying. An intermediate step for storing the logs post flight, which we used for a couple of years, was to take a photo or two of logs at the end of the flight, and to email them to a server. I doubt that they were ever looked at beyond that, but it was cheap and simple.

The current system is the end result of about three different software iterations. It started with PDFs, and is now an integrated app that holds everything, from NOTAMS to the logs. It allows anyone to actually complete log entries, and these can be synchronised to make up the complete log. NOTAMs can be prioritised, and it should have made it much simpler, but sadly the rubbish is still given too much priority, so it‘s not as helpful as it could be.



How is it that some aircraft don’t have ACARS?

That system sounds great! When I have to use the app for the flight log, it’s so clunky and crashes, when I want to check previous logs for flight times for example.

The ACARS thing is very slowly being updated, and the older machines are being retrofitted with a small printer. The problem is, the writing is so small, most of the older guys can’t read it! It’s definitely annoying though flying transcon, listening to HF broadcasts for weather updates.

 

[jb747]

The ACARS thing is very slowly being updated, and the older machines are being retrofitted with a small printer. The problem is, the writing is so small, most of the older guys can’t read it! It’s definitely annoying though flying transcon, listening to HF broadcasts for weather updates.

Show them how to use their smart phone camera as a magnifier!

 

[mjt57]

JB, in my FB feed recently someone posted a link to one of QF's 747s and its last commercial flight, one from SYD-MEL.

It was just one of the pax filming it and really was one of those skippable videos. But it did highlight questions which I'd like to ask.

The crew who fly the 744, what will happen to them? Captains retire or move to another aircraft? In their case, are they looking at pay cuts (and the inevitable hit to FAS)? Are there slots on other types that are available?

And now they're considering mothballing the A380 as this damned virus thing starts to bite. What will those guys (and gals) do?

 

[jb747]

The crew who fly the 744, what will happen to them? Captains retire or move to another aircraft? In their case, are they looking at pay cuts (and the inevitable hit to FAS)? Are there slots on other types that are available?

And now they're considering mothballing the A380 as this damned virus thing starts to bite. What will those guys (and gals) do?

The retirement of the 747s has been on the cards for a long time, and whilst AJ did bring it forward from the original time, it wasn't a dramatic change.

Of the Captains, at a guess, probably about half will retire. Of the remainder, some are anti Airbus, and would move to the 787. Those who like four engines, and don't like the thought of Airbus, will have sufficient seniority to displace on the 380. That means that they actually push out an incumbent 380 Captain...but one who is junior to them. Perhaps as many as 25% of the 380 Captains would be in danger of such displacement.

Now, they, in turn would look around the fleet, and decide where they would like to go. They're also very senior, and certainly senior to the 330 and 787 people and could simply displace onto whichever fleet they chose.

And now we have displaced 330 and 787 people, who can also displace, but who will start running out of people junior to them in the same rank, so now we have the potential for them to displace to a higher aircraft (be it 787 or 380), but as FOs.

Of course, whilst this command displacement is going on, the same game is happening amongst the FOs, but its worse there, because of the risk of Captains taking a demotion.

So, in this scenario, you could perhaps end up with about 30-50% of all seats needing to be retrained. If you threw in a retirement/reduction of the 380 on top, then it could go to about 100% displacement across the 787 and 330.

The only people who wouldn't end up with a pay cut, would be the ones senior enough to displace from the 747 to the 380, but keep their rank.

I don't understand the reference to FAS.

Of course, nobody planned for the effects of the virus, so the outcome is anyone's guess.

 

[mjt57]

Of the Captains, at a guess, probably about half will retire. Of the remainder, some are anti Airbus, and would move to the 787. Those who like four engines, and don't like the thought of Airbus, will have sufficient seniority to displace on the 380. That means that they actually push out an incumbent 380 Captain...but one who is junior to them. Perhaps as many as 25% of the 380 Captains would be in danger of such displacement.

[chomp...]

Wow, it really is a pecking order, isn't it?

I don't understand the reference to FAS.

Final Average Salary, for super calcs for those on defined benefit funds.
Or is Qantas super different?

 

[flyer89]

So, in this scenario, you could perhaps end up with about 30-50% of all seats needing to be retrained. If you threw in a retirement/reduction of the 380 on top, then it could go to about 100% displacement across the 787 and 330.

The only people who wouldn't end up with a pay cut, would be the ones senior enough to displace from the 747 to the 380, but keep their rank.

The V shape recovery from this as someone stated on the other forum is a fairly sensible theory I think. Once people stop buying toilet paper they will move to buying airfares once again and it may well be an onslaught. In terms of the RIN, I heard of quite a few silly stories from last time that whilst perhaps unavoidable(?) things like retraining a 767 captain to an A380 FO position only to, 6 months later retrain them to an A330 command seems profoundly inefficient and costly.

 

[AviatorInsight]

The retirement of the 747s has been on the cards for a long time, and whilst AJ did bring it forward from the original time, it wasn't a dramatic change.

Of the Captains, at a guess, probably about half will retire. Of the remainder, some are anti Airbus, and would move to the 787. Those who like four engines, and don't like the thought of Airbus, will have sufficient seniority to displace on the 380. That means that they actually push out an incumbent 380 Captain...but one who is junior to them. Perhaps as many as 25% of the 380 Captains would be in danger of such displacement.
....

How does that work with the different EBAs? Our A330 guys and gals are looking at some redundancies also, but because they’re on a wide body EBA, can’t displace someone on a narrow body EBA. This was something we fought for in the last agreement as guys were jumping ship from domestic to live the “good life”, whereas we saw the writing on the wall.

Would it go so far down the line that 737 drivers could potentially be in the firing line?

 

[jb747]

Final Average Salary, for super calcs for those on defined benefit funds.
Or is Qantas super different?

It's so long since I was in QF super, that I'm not sure how it works these days.

As far as I know, only division 1 & 2 were defined benefit, and I doubt that there would be many left in either of those schemes.

 

[jb747]

How does that work with the different EBAs? Our A330 guys and gals are looking at some redundancies also, but because they’re on a wide body EBA, can’t displace someone on a narrow body EBA. This was something we fought for in the last agreement as guys were jumping ship from domestic to live the “good life”, whereas we saw the writing on the wall.

Would it go so far down the line that 737 drivers could potentially be in the firing line?

That came up with the RIN associated with the loss of the 767.

Basically, the people on the 737 are safe, as they are on a totally different contract.

If it comes to retrenchments, it's lowest number first, so it doesn't matter what fleet people are on.

 

[mjt57]

It's so long since I was in QF super, that I'm not sure how it works these days.

As far as I know, only division 1 & 2 were defined benefit, and I doubt that there would be many left in either of those schemes.

May I ask to which fund did you move and why?

I've heard that your company's super scheme was one of the better ones around.

 

[jb747]

The defined benefit schemes end at age 55. That’s the point at which the payout is determined, and accounts at that point are moved to Division 6. At that stage it’s the same as any other accumulation account, and at the time was not performing all that well.

 

[mjt57]

Thanks JB. Our DB (Equipsuper) goes til you retire. Was considering moving to an accumulation fund but the benefits aren't there. In any case, the portion of super that's in accumulation is shrinking as I type...

On another note, all but two A380s will be mothballed. What will the crews be doing, if anything?

 

[mikenz]

I would presume those crews who don't have a plane to fly will be encouraged to take leave. Are you still required to do sims, other training and medicals while you're on extended leave?

 

[Quickstatus]

If command displacement occurs, how quickly can a pilot get certified to sit in the left hand seat of another aircraft type before they can actually start sitting in the left seat

 

[AviatorInsight]

I would presume those crews who don't have a plane to fly will be encouraged to take leave. Are you still required to do sims, other training and medicals while you're on extended leave?

Virgin are getting the A330 crew to take 5 stand down days per roster so far. These days are basically unpaid days with the other days doing a Transcon, or the odd MEL, etc.

If however they get leave without pay (LWOP) for 2 years lets say, they are basically free to do whatever they want. Go on contract flying with another carrier, start up a Jim's mowing business, etc. While on LWOP though they're not required to do sims or even be at work for any kind of training because they're not getting paid for it.

 

[Aus ATC]

Thanks JB. Our DB (Equipsuper) goes til you retire. Was considering moving to an accumulation fund but the benefits aren't there. In any case, the portion of super that's in accumulation is shrinking as I type...

We have a DB scheme too that continues to retirement (Avsuper - though the DB component closed to new members years ago). We have the option to cash out to accumulation fund while still working - now (or soon) might be a good time to do that, to ride the next rise from the crash - but getting the timing right is always the challenge....

I would presume those crews who don't have a plane to fly will be encouraged to take leave. Are you still required to do sims, other training and medicals while you're on extended leave?

It seems for QF it's only the A380 qualified crews that will be significantly affected. If the schedule changes are only till September, surely those folks would not retrain on other types for such short period - unless longer term plans are not to reintroduce as many A380s after September - though these guys/gals are the most senior so maybe "pecking order" will play a big part as described by JB above.

 

[jb747]

On another note, all but two A380s will be mothballed. What will the crews be doing, if anything?

Without having a current contract to look at, I think they could put everyone on to a blank line, which would have the effect of reducing the base pay by about 30%. That's obviously not enough, given the magnitude of the cuts, so the next step would be assigned leave. Historically they assign that piecemeal in 14 day chunks. That would let you get rid of most of the pilots for a couple of months at least.

There is no precedent for something like this dragging on. But, if they want to be able to restart things reasonably quickly, they would most likely not want all of the pilots to run out of currency. If that were to happen, then very substantial sim resources could be required by each and every pilot to get back on line. After 4 months off, it would probably be a batch of 5 or 6 sims each, plus a check in the aircraft. To avoid that, I'd expect them to keep a rolling sim process happening, with everyone coming in at least every 30 days or so. I'm not sure how they would allocate the limited amount of flying that there will be. Perhaps a chosen few might get it all, or it might be used in association with those sim rides, so that everyone gets a go every now and then. When it does all start again, there will be substantial safety issues that will have to be very carefully watched.

I would presume those crews who don't have a plane to fly will be encouraged to take leave. Are you still required to do sims, other training and medicals while you're on extended leave?

You'll need to keep up the medicals, to ensure the licence doesn't totally lapse. Sims will help with CASA's requirements too.

If command displacement occurs, how quickly can a pilot get certified to sit in the left hand seat of another aircraft type before they can actually start sitting in the left seat

You sit in the left seat from day one. The aim of the training is to get rid of the Captain in the right hand seat who is watching every move you make.

You'd have to do the entire type course. There may be some timing reduction if you came off that aircraft recently, but that mostly applies to the ground school component. Basically 3-4 months. There is limited ability for the sims to accept people beyond the normal training load. You could probably qualify the 380 people on the the 350 in about two months, if you had adequate sim access. Widespread displacement would represent a training load of at least an order of magnitude beyond the system's capability.

 

[jb747]

We have a DB scheme too that continues to retirement (Avsuper - though the DB component closed to new members years ago). We have the option to cash out to accumulation fund while still working - now (or soon) might be a good time to do that, to ride the next rise from the crash - but getting the timing right is always the challenge....

As financial managers, pilots make very good pilots.

It seems for QF it's only the A380 qualified crews that will be significantly affected. If the schedule changes are only till September, surely those folks would not retrain on other types for such short period - unless longer term plans are not to reintroduce as many A380s after September - though these guys/gals are the most senior so maybe "pecking order" will play a big part as described by JB above.

I would not expect any retraining unless a decision is taken to retire the 380s outright, without purchasing 350s.

It's really only the Captains who are senior. The FOs and SOs are not necessarily all that far up the tree.