Ask The Pilot

[AviatorInsight]

Interested in the personality traits that would make someone a zero extra fuel man.

They’re….fun.

 

[jb747]

How much fuel uplifted to carry the holding fuel + holding fuel?

No fixed answer to that. But, on the day, diversion fuel was the actual requirement, so any extra you added would be based on whatever you thought was the likely hold...and that's the length of a bit of string. Probably in the order of 10 tonnes, and you'd be planning on it actually being burnt.

Have you ever converted payload to holding fuel?. That would double whammy the bean counters.....

Only once that I can recall. Funnily enough the zero fuel man mentioned above, was actually doing an annual route check on me at the time, and he almost had heart failure when I bumped all of the cargo and replaced it with fuel. As it turned out, that extra was the only reason we ended up at destination.

Interested in the personality traits that would make someone a zero extra fuel man.

Aren't we all.

 

[Quickstatus]

was a good laugh

zero fuel man mentioned above, was actually doing an annual route check on me

Ah Ok.
It’s always amusing when the professor kicks an own goal. Thanks!

 

[harvyk]

So when deciding to take extra fuel, is it "gut feeling" or do you have your own formula's (which could be written down) that you use to determine how much extra?

 

[AviatorInsight]

So when deciding to take extra fuel, is it "gut feeling" or do you have your own formula's (which could be written down) that you use to determine how much extra?

There’s no formula as such that I use but as a general rule I’ll take an extra tonne on top of the flight plan. It gives me go around fuel without having to do the low fuel checklist halfway around at low level.

Edit: I should mention this is on a complete clear day. Even going to CNS on a clear day I’ll always carry TSV as an alternate.

 

[jb747]

I used to ask the SOs and FO for their proposed fuel order, before inserting my own. I recall one flight for which the answers were, zero, 2 tonnes, 6 tonnes. The low figure was a company man in training. The two tonne man probably wanted more, but didn‘t feel he could justify it. The FOs 6 tonnes was reasonable. I actually ordered 11 tonnes.

I doubt that I could give you a formula, but I did find that fuel made almost all problems go away. There is far too much of fuel policy based on best cases, and if you fly long enough you’ll see enough less than best outcomes to make you wary. Or at least it should. For instance, it’s all well and good, when someone demonstrates in the sim that a 380 go around and return only uses 2 tonnes of fuel. But, in the sim, you won’t be forced into rejoining a busy arrival pattern that involves a 100 miles of flight. Nor did they address the reason for the go around, generally simply assuming it was an ATC instruction. The 2 tonne demonstration was an attempt to show that actually arriving with 7 tonnes gave adequate margin over the absolute minimum. The problem was that an actual go around with a gear warning could easily use 6-10 tonnes.

 

[Mattg]

I had the pleasure of being flown from CBR to MEL this morning by the one and only @AviatorInsight! Great, smooth flight and he gave me a little tour of the flight deck after landing.

 

[mjt57]

Good to see people back up and flying. Hope that it stays that way.

 

[harvyk]

I used to ask the SOs and FO for their proposed fuel order, before inserting my own. I recall one flight for which the answers were, zero, 2 tonnes, 6 tonnes. The low figure was a company man in training. The two tonne man probably wanted more, but didn‘t feel he could justify it. The FOs 6 tonnes was reasonable. I actually ordered 11 tonnes.

So was that a flight which the company man would have gotten away with it, or did that extra fuel come in handy?
Also what reason do you use for justification to the company when ordering additional fuel?

 

[MooTime]

I had the pleasure of being flown from CBR to MEL this morning by the one and only @AviatorInsight! Great, smooth flight and he gave me a little tour of the flight deck after landing.

View attachment 267500

I remember being in coughpit as a 5 or 6 yo. My earliest memory of being on an aircraft. I didn't become a pilot, but remember it as a thrill. Have to dig up the photo. Every other memory as a child was throwing up, turbulence used to knock me around a lot.

Great to see some pilots still get involved in this.

 

[Hvr]

Great to see some pilots still get involved in this.

Especially great to see AFFers acknowledging the pilots who freely and graciously give their time to give us a special view of the plane.
Having been the recipient of such generosity I can confirm it is very appreciated.

 

[AviatorInsight]

Glad to have you aboard @Mattg!

Most pilots would be happy to have visitors to the flight deck after landing. It’s great to still see some interest from kids and the awe on their faces when they come up.

 

[Quickstatus]

I used to ask the SOs and FO

Did you ask them first?

Back to Captain Sean 787 captain who was faculty in our medical sim centre, during discussions about the human factors aspect of performance under stress he said a good practice is to ask the junior members of the team what they thought first, because if the "senior" or "leader" says what s/he thinks then the underlings tend to agree with the proposition which does not promote diversity of thought.

arriving with 7 tonnes

I understand it does not mean "arrive" at the gate and the aircraft is still in the air. At what point have you "arrived"?

Even going to CNS on a clear day I’ll always carry TSV as an alternate.

How much extra fuel to carry TSV from CNS?
.......

Fuel and CoG
Have you ever had unusable fuel due to CoG issues?

 

[ayebee]

+1 thanks to pilots for the chance to visit the coughpit.

Back in 80's and 90's (when I really was a QFF) I had the privilege of several jump seat landings and take-offs.
My absolute highlight was a QF B742 arriving LHR, May 1989.
Was a relatively short sector from Rome where I was upstairs in the micro first cabin & the coughpit was "just there". I asked politely and was invited in about 40 minutes before landing. After introductions, I was given the headset and asked to stay silent. It was great observing the process of arriving at a very busy airport.
I regret not keeping a better record of the captain and FO, but thanks again.

 

[AviatorInsight]

How much extra fuel to carry TSV from CNS?
.......

Fuel and CoG
Have you ever had unusable fuel due to CoG issues?

About 2 tonnes. And no never had unusable fuel issues for CoG.

 

[Quickstatus]

About 2 tonnes

Its a short distance - only approx 150nm. Are you including GA fuel for alternate as well?

 

[jb747]

So was that a flight which the company man would have gotten away with it, or did that extra fuel come in handy?

Nope. None of them would have been ok.

Also what reason do you use for justification to the company when ordering additional fuel?

I didn't have to justify anything to them.

Did you ask them first?

Of course, anything else would be effectively giving away the answer.

Back to Captain Sean 787 captain who was faculty in our medical sim centre, during discussions about the human factors aspect of performance under stress he said a good practice is to ask the junior members of the team what they thought first, because if the "senior" or "leader" says what s/he thinks then the underlings tend to agree with the proposition which does not promote diversity of thought.

Yes, and if they have a better idea, then you can claim it.

I understand it does not mean "arrive" at the gate and the aircraft is still in the air. At what point have you "arrived"?

The flight, for fuel purposes, ends at the end of the landing roll. It's generally a good idea to have enough to make it from there to the gate though.

How much extra fuel to carry TSV from CNS?

What in? 747? You'd need to leave TSV (i.e. go around with) about 12 tonnes. I recall diverting from London to Amsterdam, which is about 60 nm further, and I think the figure was 13.8 tonnes.

That will be made up of...
a. Flight fuel, which is what you'll burn from the go around point until 1,500 on finals.
b. Variable, which is 10% of a.
c. Approach fuel. Fuel from 1,500 to end of landing roll. Around 1,000 kgs
d. Fixed reserve. 30 minutes, so about 5,000kgs.

Fuel and CoG
Have you ever had unusable fuel due to CoG issues?

Not that I recall. It could be a big issue in the 380 with certain pump failure scenarios.

My absolute highlight was a QF B742 arriving LHR, May 1989.

It's a pity that all went away after 911. I rarely left a jump seat empty, especially into HK.

Rome to London is unusual. Around that time frame, Rome was generally serviced by flights from Athens. I do recall one that I did from London, but don't have the details.

 

[ayebee]

Rome to London is unusual. Around that time frame, Rome was generally serviced by flights from Athens. I do recall one that I did from London, but don't have the details.

It was 4 May 1989.
I flew into Rome a couple of times on QF, but I am relying on my diary.

Does anyone know of a website that has archived flight schedules / logs from those days ?

 

[AviatorInsight]

Its a short distance - only approx 150nm. Are you including GA fuel for alternate as well?

Yes, it’s calculated using the fuel from B-C + a 30NM SID allowance, + a 30NM STAR allowance (which is manoeuvre fuel) + 10% contingency. The manoeuvre fuel is added to account for additional fuel burnt during the missed approach, departure from the destination and approach at the destination alternate.

Then on top of all that is the 30mins fixed reserve.

 

[jb747]

Fuel is always an interesting discussion. Obviously, at one extreme, you can go stupid, and send your company broke carrying unnecessary fuel around. At the other end, you don’t need too many diversions before you cost more than you save. And, the fact that insufficient fuel takes away your options, will have safety implications in itself.

Whilst the companies will always push carriage of minimum fuel, it would actually be a really bad day for them if everyone actually decided to do it. There was once a QF 747 captain, whose nickname was Vapours. His fuel order was legal, but his diversion rate was so high that the company actually put out a fuel order just for him, and arbitrarily added 5 tonnes to all of his flight plans. Reality was that they were simply being shown what would happen if they got their wish.

Because the fuel orders are tracked, and pilots are inherently competitive, and perhaps somewhat sneaky, it could be a game of manipulating their fuel tracking. This goes back a long way. For instance, if you want to be a min fuel man, but don‘t actually want to reduce your fuel order, all you had to do was ring flight planning and tell them to put X extra on, before the plan was run. That way it simply did not appear as additional. Or perhaps you could offload fuel on a tanked sector (i.e. a negative fuel adjustment).

Passengers pay to go from A to B. They aren’t interested in a pointless, and unnecessary stop at C. That was always my plan. The end result was only a couple of diversions on the 767 within Oz, one each on the 747 and 380. I was pretty happy with that outcome.