Australian Reports of the Virus Spread

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Getting a tad heated here..
Older folks see life through a different lens; we have a family member near end of life and the vision has changed with the horizon.
Treating Medico's are the clearly the folks to make difficult decisions, we should support them without reservation....I take my hat off to them all
 
Treating Medico's are the clearly the folks to make difficult decisions
To give empathy to all who are at that time of their lives and their families...

When I was in training, and i believe it still applies today, it was impressed on me that families of loved ones do not want to be the final decision makers about their loved ones continuation of care or nor. They would prefer to let the medicos make that decision -because they can't. It all comes down to trust. Would you trust a medico to make that decision for them or some detached "independent" person/panel?

So we NEVER ask families "do you wish to turn off the life support". We would tell them in the most compassionate way and showing the upmost empathy "i think its time to let **** go, there is not much more we can do, so It's time to turn off the life support".
Everytime I had to do that, I always had the thanks of the families, not because of the care that was given but because it relieved them of the awful burden of that decision and action....

Edit: And if the families were required to make that decision, sometimes they would say no....even it it meant prolonging futile care and potentially suffering. That is the worst place to be - for everyone.....
 
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To give empathy to all who are at that time of their lives and their families...

When I was in training, and i believe it still applies today, it was impressed on me that families of loved ones do not want to be the final decision makers about their loved ones continuation of care or nor. They would prefer to let the medicos make that decision -because they can't. It all comes down to trust. Would you trust a medico to make that decision for them or some detached "independent" person/panel?

So we NEVER ask families "do you wish to turn off the life support". We would tell them in the most compassionate way and showing the upmost empathy "i think its time to let **** go, there is not much more we can do, so It's time to turn off the life support".
Everytime I had to do that, I always had the thanks of the families, not because of the care that was given but because it relieved them of the awful burden of that decision and action....

Edit: And if the families were required to make that decision, sometimes they would say no....even it it meant prolonging futile care and potentially suffering. That is the worst place to be - for everyone.....
I'd expect to at least be consulted and not assumed I didn't want any input. When Mum had a considerable stroke or brain bleed, I was asked if I wanted to follow through on her previous instructions ( which were no extraordinary measures). I always appreciated that question.
 
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To give empathy to all who are at that time of their lives and their families...

When I was in training, and i believe it still applies today, it was impressed on me that families of loved ones do not want to be the final decision makers about their loved ones continuation of care or nor. They would prefer to let the medicos make that decision -because they can't. It all comes down to trust. Would you trust a medico to make that decision for them or some detached "independent" person/panel?

So we NEVER ask families "do you wish to turn off the life support". We would tell them in the most compassionate way and showing the upmost empathy "i think its time to let **** go, there is not much more we can do, so It's time to turn off the life support".
Everytime I had to do that, I always had the thanks of the families, not because of the care that was given but because it relieved them of the awful burden of that decision and action....

Edit: And if the families were required to make that decision, sometimes they would say no....even it it meant prolonging futile care and potentially suffering. That is the worst place to be - for everyone.....

This also reflects my experience working (admittedly) many decades ago in ICU. Family dynamics is always complex. What I would not uncommonly see was those children who provided greatest practical support and care and awareness that parent did not want futile prolonging of ‘care’ often in conflict…. w other family members (and doctors) . These family members often had little to do with their loved ones during life demanding everything be offered now even if hopeless…
 
Correct but actually a different but an important conversation "what are your mothers wishes"
The conversation was different. Perhaps they knew that I was aware of her wishes. But it was along the lines of 'What do you want to do.' It was me who said it was her wishes, although being in a nursing home she had already been required to provide her care option to the admin. I appreciated being given a different option and as I was involved in her care, as were others, we werent absent carers. But I was still given personal choice, as her next of kin at the time.
 
I would not ask " what do you want to do"
I would actually ask "what are here wishes"

Maybe off topic for a virus thread maybe move to gen medical thread??
😂. Agree. How did this thread get here! 🤷‍♀️
 
The WA Dept of Health have been handing out RAT tests at my small local shopping centre all this week.

Why? Can’t you get them in pharmacies etc in WA anymore?

Or were they handing them out in an area they think there may be affordability issues?
 
We are having a public spat in SA because the CHO is stating that the peak is yet to happen (despite 3 weeks ago saying it was going to be on July 17 🤷‍♀️,) the Chief Epidemiologst who is extremely conservative states that falling rates (around 800 less each day for a week now with higher testing) says it's already passed, and the new Premier who just wants it all to go away. This conflicting information from the 2 experts is what is turning people away.
 
Why? Can’t you get them in pharmacies etc in WA anymore?

Or were they handing them out in an area they think there may be affordability issues?
Theyve been distributing them at shopping centres, train stations, major events etc throughout Perth and WA for weeks. My guess is it's to encourage ongoing testing if you're symptomatic in any way (you can also get 10 free rats if you are a household contact).
 
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This conflicting information from the 2 experts is what is turning people away.
Why is this an issue? 3 weeks ago the peak was going to be 17 July and now the modelling suggests the peak is yet to come.

That's perfectly OK. Quite easy to adjust the expectation.

I saw the graphs that were posted in 2020 comparing covid to the flu side by side and saying the concern for covid was over. Compare the 2 now. They are not even remotely comparable.

There are so many variables in play. Just accept that life has stalled and we don't know if and when we'll ever get back to some sort of normal.

Note we may never get back to old normal in our lifetime and that is OK too.
 
Because someone who needs ICU intervention even if they are young is unlikely to come out alive anyway without that ICU intervention.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Its true a young healthy person who gets covid, will almost always come through unscathed without need for hospitalisation or any medical treatment at all. But those individuals aren't preventing an older person who is seriously ill from accessing an ICU bed or other treatment.

Very different from the rare case where a younger person gets seriously ill with covid and actually needs medical intervention in ICU (due to their other underlying conditions). In that case, if there are ICU bed shortages and a doctor is choosing who gets the ICU bed the seriously ill younger person or the seriously ill geriatric person, all other things being equal it would generally be prudent to prioritise the younger. Tough choices get made all the time.
Was the issue (ethical) that of an eldely person with Covid-19 vs a young person needing ICU, not a young person with Covid-19 needing ICU? That makes a massive difference in the number of 'young' person ICU admissions.



Having had three close relatives who all sailed through their 90s - two of whom were active (walking briskly, gardening, shopping) until literally the last minute (one had ordered her breakfast in bed, unusually, and when it arrived she had died) through to 98, 99 11m 20 days (missed out from her much desired card) and 101 (proud possessor of the card, and said 'You'd thought she could have given me a better smile') - I was very thankful that they were not around when Covid-19 struck with all its issues for isolation.
________________________________

Back to elderly covid-19 patient vs young (does that mean under 65? Under 50? Under 40? Under 30?) patient getting priority for an ICU bed.

Given the life expectancy for someone who is 70 years old is to live to a greater age than someone who has reached 50, which is greater than for someone who has reached 40 etc etc. The actuarial tables are there for all to see.

What if this 'young' person has some issue that is 'socially' frowned upon - such as long term illegal drug use (that has severely damaged multiple organs hence need for ICU ), drunk driver who has just wiped out three children walking on the footpath, or some societal 'worst' habit with criminal convictions (murderer, rapist, paedophile etc)?

There are restrictions on who is eligible for organ transplants (which are somewhat public), so is it that much of a stretch for the community to ask for similar transparency about ICU admission?

Anything otherwise seems to be just socializing 'Russian Roulette'.

Attempts to deflect this question by saying there are few 'young' Covid-19 patients put into ICU, to me, is irrelevant. The issue seemingly is ageist, not Covid, related.
 
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Why is this an issue? 3 weeks ago the peak was going to be 17 July and now the modelling suggests the peak is yet to come.
As I prefaced, the issue is not the date at all but being the public dispute between the two experts and which played out in a parliamentary committee yesterday. (For the record we never thought the 17 was going to be the peak and never understood why she even predicted that date. She didnt need to do that. It was her call and came out of the blue.)

It does not inspire any confidence in the people making decisions.

And I fully intend to get my life back to normal.
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friend just finished working with her and wasn't a fan
Her husband is an excellent physiotherapist I’ve heard from a couple of reputable sources.
 
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