Booking extra full fare ticket to block seats / upgrades

[mitchd]

Announcing your intentions, along with a narrow window of travel dates and routes, on a public forum is an interesting way to increase your vanishingly small probability of success

 

[bam71]

I’m interested to see what happens

 

[JohnM]

Long enough not to sit in economy.

But you were talking about pulling this stunt in J…

 

[thecatinthehat]

Announcing your intentions, along with a narrow window of travel dates and routes, on a public forum is an interesting way to increase your vanishingly small probability of success

If there is someone from VA stalking this thread and then searching through thousands (tens) of bookings who then subsequently noticed I have cancelled a seat — I figure more power to them.

I read through this thread this morning and I realise it sort of sounds like a troll thread but there’s no other way to ask the question without getting your head ripped off.

Anyways the booking has been made, so I suppose let the games begin. Will have to see if my other half makes the flight or not. She’s pretty fickle.

 

[thecatinthehat]

But you were talking about pulling this stunt in J…

Hence why I said long enough not to sit in economy.

 

[JohnM]

Hence why I said long enough not to sit in economy.

And I was referencing your original statement about J…

 

[Matty F]

I realise it sort of sounds like a troll thread

Of course it does.

There is not an unlimited number of flights, and you're talking about fraudulently blocking the rest of us from accessing a finite inventory. Perhaps not so much in your legally-questionable experiment, but none of us want to see this practice take off at scale and produce artificial scarcity. Economically speaking, we would start seeing less reward availabilty and higher prices.

But then again, people with a self-centered worldview don't tend to think much about how they mess things up for others, do they.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Of course it does.

There is not an unlimited number of flights, and you're talking about fraudulently blocking the rest of us from accessing a finite inventory. Perhaps not so much in your legally-questionable experiment, but none of us want to see this practice take off at scale and produce artificial scarcity. Economically speaking, we would start seeing less reward availabilty and higher prices.

But then again, people with a self-centered worldview don't tend to think much about how they mess things up for others, do they.

I'm not sure how this is much different than booking 5 flights for each day of the week if you aren't sure when a project finishes etc. This is not uncommon and plenty of people are booking multiple seats across different airlines.

In fact a quick google search reveals people actively discussing this -- so I think it bears discussion: Unreliability Means Booking Two Tickets For Same Trip - Live and Let's Fly

I couldn't find much on it before, but a lot more comes up when I searched using the terms "speculative booking".

Albeit this is in reference to flight cancellations in the US etc..

 

[jb747]

I'm not sure how this is much different than booking 5 flights for each day of the week if you aren't sure when a project finishes etc. This is not uncommon and plenty of people are booking multiple seats across different airlines.

In fact a quick google search reveals people actively discussing this -- so I think it bears discussion: Unreliability Means Booking Two Tickets For Same Trip - Live and Let's Fly

I couldn't find much on it before, but a lot more comes up when I searched using the terms "speculative booking".

Albeit this is in reference to flight cancellations in the US etc..

Whether it's trolling or not, it's intentionally nasty, and I'm sure you'd complain if customers found a way to do it to your business.

But, I don't see why you think it would block an upgrade. They can easily happen at the gate. That 30 minutes when the airline will know is an eternity as far as putting staff on, or upgrading someone. I suspect that it also makes your own seat selection less stable too, as they're much more likely to more you as a singleton than they are to split up a couple.

And yes businesses do do it a fair bit. And the airlines work to counter it in an number of ways. Including overbooking which may well mean people being downgraded, or even denied boarding when those extras actually show up.

To be honest, I hope it turns to custard on you.

 

[Must...Fly!]

I'm not sure how this is much different than booking 5 flights for each day of the week if you aren't sure when a project finishes etc

Never understood this approach. If you're willing to do this then why not just book a flight when you're ready to leave?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Of course it does.

There is not an unlimited number of flights, and you're talking about fraudulently blocking the rest of us from accessing a finite inventory. Perhaps not so much in your legally-questionable experiment, but none of us want to see this practice take off at scale and produce artificial scarcity. Economically speaking, we would start seeing less reward availabilty and higher prices.

But then again, people with a self-centered worldview don't tend to think much about how they mess things up for others, do they.

It doesn’t take off at scale because airlines are expert at managing this. As I mentioned unthread, overbooking occurs exactly for the reason that some passengers needing flexibility book multiple flights (for legitimate reasons such as when a project might finish).

Post automatically merged: Apr 25, 2022

If there is someone from VA stalking this thread and then searching through thousands (tens) of bookings who then subsequently noticed I have cancelled a seat — I figure more power to them.

I read through this thread this morning and I realise it sort of sounds like a troll thread but there’s no other way to ask the question without getting your head ripped off.

Anyways the booking has been made, so I suppose let the games begin. Will have to see if my other half makes the flight or not. She’s pretty fickle.

That’s the thing… airline yield management does carefully manage and review each flight. That’s why additional award seats can be made available 14 days, 7 days or even one day before departure. Flights are actively monitored to maximise yield. It’s why an award seat, once cancelled, may not go back into award inventory. The flight is assessed whether to release the seat back, or not.

If we look at the example of booking four seats and cancelling in the hope of securing an upgrade, VA would be looking at why half the cabin of a 737 cancelled 30 minutes before departure. If it happened twice, and the same passenger benefitted from an upgrade, they’d almost certainly look a bit closer!

 

[thecatinthehat]

Interestingly on this topic, I discovered that there are people who actively make a living out of this in the hopes they get invol compensation by looking up the flight stats. For example in LAS where many flights are overbooked for thanksgiving/christmas. They book Y fully refundable fares to many destinations, then show up in the hopes they get bumped and compensated. I feel like that's the extreme end of things.

 

[thecatinthehat]

But, I don't see why you think it would block an upgrade.

For this I was referring to the UpgradeMe bidding. If the flight is "full" and others don't book revenue seats -- 24 hours ahead of time the Upgrade sweep for bidding (which takes priority over points and staff tickets as it represents incremental revenue) would potentially upgrade a Y to a J.

It's more about the overall numbers game, you would stand a better chance of bidding to an upgrade if 4 seats are free vs. 1. Once again, as others have said I think the extreme end of things would be 4 people out of a 8 person cabin and would probably be a bit odd.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Interestingly on this topic, I discovered that there are people who actively make a living out of this in the hopes they get invol compensation by looking up the flight stats. For example in LAS where many flights are overbooked for thanksgiving/christmas. They book Y fully refundable fares to many destinations, then show up in the hopes they get bumped and compensated. I feel like that's the extreme end of things.

It makes for a good story Airlines also proactively trawl through reservations to find duplicate bookings, or ‘impossible’ bookings… multiple flights that cannot all be taken due to timing. They will contact passengers to ask which one of the multiple bookings they actually want, and cancel the rest (sometimes the passenger isn’t even asked, the first booking is kept and the rest cancelled).

I know some people have employed the techniques you mention… but it’s not an easy game. Linking to a FF account or airline club membership causes issues. Check the number of threads out there about major US carriers suspending FF accounts - with all points lost - for issues such as these.

More than one account has been suspended simply because someone redeemed FF tickets for a travelling companion where the FF member paid the flights and the companion paid the accommodation… the airlines considered that a contravention of the rules due to ‘bartering’ (of miles).

 

[Must...Fly!]

(which takes priority over points and staff tickets as it represents incremental revenue)

It does not necessarily take priority over points.

It's more about the overall numbers game, you would stand a better chance of bidding to an upgrade if 4 seats are free vs. 1.

You are beginning to come full circle now. See how what you are proposing could be argued to be an attempt to defraud the airline?

 

[thecatinthehat]

You are beginning to come full circle now. See how what you are proposing could be argued to be an attempt to defraud the airline?

I guess the same could be said about anyone who makes a restaurant booking at multiple restaurants.

It does not necessarily take priority over points.

Maybe not, but platinum points upgrade waitlisted plus an upgrademe bid in the wings (whether one of the 4 free yearly or just cash) would certainly have pretty good odds.

More than one account has been suspended simply because someone redeemed FF tickets for a travelling companion where the FF member paid the flights and the companion paid the accommodation… the airlines considered that a contravention of the rules due to ‘bartering’ (of miles).

I think if you are doing all that and linking your FF you are asking for trouble. The thing is, it's pretty hard to connect the dots unless it's an obscene abuse of the system that is consistent and egregious.

 

[RooFlyer]

It’s potentially an intent to defraud, obtain something by deception, or cause financial loss.

.

That could be a perspective on a certain airline’s behaviour over Easter, and more ( catering, bags etc). All those people turning up wasn’t a surprise - they all had advance bookings after all …

I have no problem with the OP musing about their plans here. It’s a flyer’s forum isn’t it? Much gaming the system discussed before and I hope into the future.

EG booking a cheap multi sector flight and then throwing away the final leg. Lot of discussion in this forum on such before and I don’t recall great indignation.

At worst I see the plan no different from an airline overbooking. Selling tickets on a flight they know cannot all be flown. Check the quote above again. Does overbooking not sound like that?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think if you are doing all that and linking your FF you are asking for trouble. The thing is, it's pretty hard to connect the dots unless it's an obscene abuse of the system that is consistent and egregious.

That's your belief, but the reality is that airlines have years of experience and spend a lot of money to refine yield management. It's actually not as hard as you think. Airlines can easily track throw-away and hidden city ticketing. I agree that in those circumstances, they may be more liberal in deciding whether to enforce, or not.

The AA documentary that was filmed several years ago went into a lot of detail on yield management. As soon as a flight took off they knew exactly how much profit or loss that flight made. As part of the documentary they tracked a 767 from JFK-LAX. On wheels up they knew it made USD252 in profit... with fully loaded cabins and full of freight. (Better than a loss!)

 

[RooFlyer]

Of course it does.

There is not an unlimited number of flights, and you're talking about fraudulently blocking the rest of us from accessing a finite inventory. Perhaps not so much in your legally-questionable experiment, but none of us want to see this practice take off at scale and produce artificial scarcity. Economically speaking, we would start seeing less reward availabilty and higher prices.

But then again, people with a self-centered worldview don't tend to think much about how they mess things up for others, do they.

Oh, please …

 

[thecatinthehat]

Hidden city ticketing is so pervasive I remember when a teenager setup a whole search engine for it. Got sued by United Airlines I think? And then won and the site is still going to this day, now he actually makes money off the referral links.