Breaking the deadlock - Election 2010

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Gillard has been PM for 3 weeks before the election, so I'm not sure that there is much to the idea that she hasn't done anything that she promised to do.
I think in that 3 weeks Gillard made enough blunders to show us a glimpse of the future of the Gillard Labor government. Or should I say a repeat of the blunders of the previous Labor government where she was deputy and a key decision maker.

So I don't really have a problem with the outcome and I hope that Gillard does something positive with the opportunity given to her.
Well let's hope that she does something positive for our country.

It terms of voting for a person or a party, I thought people where saying that you in fact vote for a person, the person who represents your electorate. So no you don't vote for the leader of a party but you do know which party your representative is in and that gives some indication of the possible leader.
I think people are underestimating the value of a leader in winning an election. Take Hawke, Keating and Howard as recent examples. Some notable failures were Hayden, Hewson, Beasley, Latham.

Go into an election with someone like Hewson or Latham and you lose the marginal seats needed to form government. Go in with someone like Hawke or Howard and you come out a winner. I don't think people who voted in those marginal seats really cared who was representing them in their electorate but voted for the party and more importantly the person leading the party they wanted in power.

If a party goes into an election with one person and wins and then dumps them then to me that is deception and that party no longer deserves my vote.

By the way I vote in an electorate that has been, and will almost always be, Labor. We were fortunate (not really but I think you get my drift) to have Leo MacLeay for many years and now we have Tony Burke. So no matter what my vote is wasted....
 
The system works and pretty well.Once again a hard decision has been made without violence,deaths etc as happens in many other places in the world.
I had no doubt Windsor would go with the ALP and Katter with the Coalition.I had no idea what Oakeshott would do and it appears he was of the same mind.
The unfortunate thing is that society has become much more polarised,not only here.Friendships across the divide such as Bonner and Daly are much harder now and both sides are to blame.I laugh every time people from the left say the right is good at being negative and vice versa.Both lots are the same.We all tend to make statements without full knowledge-just as an example how many who describe Howard as our worst PM have had anything to do with him?Just look at Tony Blair's view of George W.
It would be great if we all took a great big deep breath and tried to look for positives rather than negatives.
 
I used to think that the overall 2-party preferred vote, whilst being actually irrelevant in deciding who forms government, was at least a "pure" statistic that could be used to justify the decision of the independents. Then I heard an interesting fact. My seat (Grayndler) is eliminated from the count because it is not considered to be a contest between the 2 main parties. This is because the nice young boy that the Coalition put forward as a sacrificial lamb only scored 24% of the primary vote, and the Greens polled 25%.

WTF?!?

Apparently the same criteria is used in half a dozen other seats as well.

So the 50.01/49.99 advantage the Coalition has over Labour is a pretty arbitrary figure and could easily be the other way under a different system of measuring 2-party preferred. Let's hear it for statistics!

In the end the members of the electorates chose which party (or parties in this case) will form government. Just as the members of each party chose their leader. This seems a little hard for tories to understand but I think they may be playing dumb, or at least I hope they are.

BTW - every poll before the election had Gillard as the preferred PM. So it looks like the popular result has carried, doesn't it?
 
Well let's hope that she does something positive for our country.


I think people are underestimating the value of a leader in winning an election. Take Hawke, Keating and Howard as recent examples. Some notable failures were Hayden, Hewson, Beasley, Latham.

Regardless of history the die is cast and we all need to hope for something positive. I at least think that gillard has the will to work with the independents to get legislation up. Something I think is lacking in Rudd.

I do of course mourn the lack of a true leader as we've had in the past. That has been the hardest part of the election for me. Gillard is relatively unknown compared to Abbott so I'll at least give her a chance show us if she is a true leader.

As a general comment; others have stated it much more eloquently than me, unlike football it's not the score that counts but the number of players which determines the winner.
 
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Of course there is also the fact that it is only the coalition that has placed any faith in the primary numbers. Not sure how pointing out the fallacy of that position translates into a suggestion that the coalition's false measure should be applied to the other side.
The reality is that the party political system encourages such behaviour from all sides.

Point scoring to help the faithful feel vindicated about their choices.
 
The reality is that the party political system encourages such behaviour from all sides.

Point scoring to help the faithful feel vindicated about their choices.

Well there is that of course. But why bring reality into it? ;)
 
No. But your response is a good example of the tone of most citizens right now, and exactly why our system of government is a travesty and an utter failure of governance.

Any evidence for your assertion that "most citizens" have this tone.

By and large, the rights of the people to decide who should govern have been betrayed. At least, this is the popular opinion of the people of this nation. It doesn't matter who actually became the puppet leader in the end, but a sizable proportion of the population - and indeed even the formed government - are of the belief that the wrong person is leading the country.

The system has done what the system does. The independents are responsible ultimately to their electorate, and they have to make choices for their electorate. They will be judged by their constituents at the next election.

The fact that there are people that disagree with the side they chose to support is not a failing of the system, and does not, in my view, suggest that the system is wrong.

However, if we wanted to actually make sure all people were fairly content with who is leading the country, then we would need an election result by consensus. Since that's "too difficult", it doesn't happen. Yet our conceding of this point does not stop the opposition to the leadership (be it in the form of the populace or their representatives in parliament) from paralyzing the progressing of the nation, the responsibility of the elected government. That action of paralysis is itself a betrayal of democracy and is perpetrated without boundaries by the press.

The people do not actually elect who will lead them. It is the party process that has tried to push things into a more presedential style election, but that is not our underlying system. If anything you vote for the party that you think best represents your interest.

I think that it is the belief of the people that they elect the leader of the country that is wrong.


  • Individual parliamentarians have the sole right to hold an entire nation's legislative course to ransom (in this case, Fielding)

A single person cannot hold the nations legislative course to ransom. It is only an issue when there is a disagreement between the parties over legislation. There is nothing wrong, in my view, of someone suggesting amendments to the legislation.

At the other extreme, you can end up with a party controlling both houses, where the senate becomes a simple rubber stamp for the house. It is in such situations where you get the parties implementing some rather extreme policies guided by idealogy rather than what is right for the country.

For a democracy by parliament to actually work, people need to respect the system and then acknowledge that when a decision on leadership has been made, until the next time that leadership is contested then we need to work effectively together for the best interests of the nation. Perpetrating a cycle of governance paralysis and unfair representation will certainly not be in the interests of the nation, but we all know it's going to happen. It's happening right now....

There is little evidence that the current position cannot work. Indeed, minority government is probably more the norm in the state governments, and, with the possible exception of a couple of states, they seem to be functional (and stable).

Time will tell, of course, but I don't believe that we are necessarliy heading toward a period of instability.

If anything the current vote reflects disenchantment with the two major parties, and I think it is something both sides need to take on board.
 
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Regardless of history the die is cast and we all need to hope for something positive. I at least think that gillard has the will to work with the independents to get legislation up. Something I think is lacking in Rudd.

I do of course mourn the lack of a true leader as we've had in the past. That has been the hardest part of the election for me. Gillard is relatively unknown compared to Abbott so I'll at least give her a chance show us if she is a true leader.

As a general comment; others have stated it much more eloquently than me, unlike football it's not the score that counts but the number of players which determines the winner.

Indeed. The days when we had leaders of conviction seem to have passed. While it could be argued that it was their convictions that unseated Keating and Howard in the end, you knew where they stood.

The interesting thing about Abbott was that he did a quite remarkable job as opposition leader. Turnbull was unable to get much traction in unsettling Rudd, while Abbott succeeded. This is not to say that Abbott would make a good prime minister, but he is certainly a good opposition leader at the moment.
 
Just remember if there is a double dip recession it will be bye bye the ALP next time so I doubt anyone really should be celebrating.

I'm much more of an optimist and believe there won't be such a thing happening. Yes the markets have been haywire over the last decade eg. prolonged economic growth against all historical cycles, then followed by a GFC. But with ALP in - and me being positive - last night I went for a dinner (supporting the economy even though my spend is negligible), this week out to buy a new laptop (even though I don't really need it, but just want it), tonight taking the GF's family out for dinner ..... but on the contrary I made a pledge that if LNP got in, I'd stop all discretionary spending in AUS purely to not support the economy (even though again my spend is negligble). Christmas is going to be great this year! Happy times ahead.
 
The ALP had a slightly more positive/vision focussed campaign. All I got from he coalition was stop the boats and the we'll all be runed. Maybe because I'm in a safe seat, but then while in Sydney during the week I'm not in a safe seat (I think)

Only slightly :confused: IMO if ALP only had a slightly more positive campaign, then Abbott's campaign was as low as the permanent topkill cement that is plugging the recent BP oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.
 
The unfortunate thing is that society has become much more polarised,not only here.Friendships across the divide such as Bonner and Daly are much harder now and both sides are to blame.

Funny (and sadly) you said that because it's sooo true. Just over last night's dinner for example, a mate of mine is sooooo pro-Liberal and I'm soooooo pro-Labor and we had a brief (and heated) discussion about politics and it wasn't going good but luckily we switched topics FAST. And whilst driving home, the GF commented that she felt very uncomfortable too.
 
The system works and pretty well.Once again a hard decision has been made without violence,deaths etc as happens in many other places in the world.
I had no doubt Windsor would go with the ALP and Katter with the Coalition.I had no idea what Oakeshott would do and it appears he was of the same mind.
The unfortunate thing is that society has become much more polarised,not only here.Friendships across the divide such as Bonner and Daly are much harder now and both sides are to blame.I laugh every time people from the left say the right is good at being negative and vice versa.Both lots are the same.We all tend to make statements without full knowledge-just as an example how many who describe Howard as our worst PM have had anything to do with him?Just look at Tony Blair's view of George W.
It would be great if we all took a great big deep breath and tried to look for positives rather than negatives.

Amen, drron. :)

We have a diverse range of political views represented at work. Thankfully still one big happy family.
 
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Only slightly :confused: IMO if ALP only had a slightly more positive campaign, then Abbott's campaign was as low as the permanent topkill cement that is plugging the recent BP oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.

That's a fair assessment of my view of the campaign. I has a big explanation of my opinion typed in but luckily (that wasn't the word I used at the time) iPhone 3G with OS4 crashed. So you can be spared the boredom.
 
Regardless of history the die is cast and we all need to hope for something positive. I at least think that gillard has the will to work with the independents to get legislation up. Something I think is lacking in Rudd.
No need for me to comment further but for the sake of our country I hope you are right.

As a general comment; others have stated it much more eloquently than me, unlike football it's not the score that counts but the number of players which determines the winner.
I may have missed that comment. Are you actually referring to the numbers needed in the house of representatives to form government and not the actual votes?

I hope some people do not take this as criticism but rather as an opinion. I believe that in our current electoral system ~80% of the people do not (realistically) have a say in which party gets elected to power. In the majority of (past and I believe future) elections it is actually ~20% of the swinging voters that control the fate of the election. I really do not call that very democratic....
 
No need for me to comment further but for the sake of our country I hope you are right.
As do I

I may have missed that comment. Are you actually referring to the numbers needed in the house of representatives to form government and not the actual votes?

I hope some people do not take this as criticism but rather as an opinion. I believe that in our current electoral system ~80% of the people do not (realistically) have a say in which party gets elected to power. In the majority of (past and I believe future) elections it is actually ~20% of the swinging voters that control the fate of the election. I really do not call that very democratic....

Yes, the number of MPs being the team members and the votes being the score.

The situation with swinging voters in probably exact correct. I would say it
Is more like 2-5%, based on the swings. 5% from the alp, 2% to the coalition and 3% to greens (roughly). I was encouraged by the swing to green as it final said that a number of votes where finally seeking something different. IMO while voters continue to imagine a choice between 2 parties the swinging vote will always decide. A third force is useful and I hope it becomes a feature of Australian politics. Then we might get some broadly agree outcomes instead of one side or the other running off with their pipedreams at the expense of a big chunk of the population.
 
I hope some people do not take this as criticism but rather as an opinion. I believe that in our current electoral system ~80% of the people do not (realistically) have a say in which party gets elected to power. In the majority of (past and I believe future) elections it is actually ~20% of the swinging voters that control the fate of the election. I really do not call that very democratic....

On the contrary - it is the epitomy of democracy. The fact that you believe your vote is worthless is a pity, but everyone's vote counts and is valued equally.

Then again ... if you blindly vote Tory regardless of the qualities of the local candidate or the party or its leader, then arguably your vote is worthless in one sense. Whereas the so-called swinging voters are at least showing some initiative, though going by the quality of the election campaigns it is not always a highly educated assessment.
 
Then again ... if you blindly vote Tory regardless of the qualities of the local candidate or the party or its leader, then arguably your vote is worthless in one sense. Whereas the so-called swinging voters are at least showing some initiative, though going by the quality of the election campaigns it is not always a highly educated assessment.
As I mentioned earlier I am swinging voter with a vote wasted in an electorate that has been Labor for as long as I can remember and will remain Labor unless there are drastic changes.

FWIW I have voted for Hawke, Keating, Howard, Beazley and then against Howard and now against Gillard. I usually vote for the person I think will do the best for the country (or sometimes the person who will not do the worst) not my electorate. I have no idea what the Federal MP's in our electorate (including famous Leo MacLeay) have ever tried to achieve in our electorate. Is Tony Burke even a local?
 
Well a bit slow for an opinionated git like me but just caught up with today's Australian. Tax reform is on the agenda, thanks to the independents. I'm very happy. :D Never would have happened without a hung parliament so the outcome is getting better IMO.

I hope something good comes from it.

Labor forced to face tax changes | The Australian
 
The Libs did have 13 years to make a go of it. Labor's now got their chance to make it work over the next 3 years.
 
Interestingly (assuming the current situations stands), the conservatives have the ability to draw up and enact their own legislation until July next year. :shock:
 
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