Breeze & maybe Rex ?

[Quickstatus]

But it’s actually uncommon for the usual skiers to fly into Aspen or Vail. They normally go by Road from DEN via the I-70

only the billionaires fly into aspen or Vail.

The idea of a package between the AUS resorts and transport companies have been raised many times with the Resorts. They do not see it as important because they know they are always full in peak season. One less liability to hold. And in low ski season, they know that that time is populated generally by budget skiers who won’t pay airfares in the range that you suggest.

I don’t see jets taking over the turboprop market. They use significantly more fuel as they are heavier per seat. They seem to be 100 or more seats .

Short jet routes are also uneconomic as they don’t spend significant times at their cruise altitude. They also don’t get you there faster on those routes compared with turboprops.

Embraer used to make a 35 seat E135 jet but that went out of production years ago. I think the Bae146 has 90? Seats but it runs on 4 engines. Super quiet but in regional Australia I don’t think the kangaroos will care.

 

[ozfflyer]

Just a minor point of correction re: 100 seats. The A220-100 has 125 seats in all Y config (obviously with a small J cabin probably more like 118 seats. The A220-200 has 145 seats.

my post was a bit off topic as saw on another forum talk of VA using Alliance jets to do BNE/ABX, OOL/ABX. Wasn't suggesting Rex or anyone else use an A220 to do route, but obviously an A220 could do BNE/ABX or OOL/ABX. Told a B733 can get into ABX, but any bigger 737s would be restricted due to terrain

 

[Quickstatus]

The only turboprops with less than 50 seats and in production could be:

ATR42
Antonov 140.
I believe the Dash8-200 is out of production

 

[Quickstatus]

Don’t forget JetGo. Regional services with Jets is a very hard business.

 

[ozfflyer]

But it’s actually uncommon for the usual skiers to fly into Aspen or Vail. They normally go by Road from DEN via the I-70

only the billionaires fly into aspen or Vail.

The idea of a package between the AUS resorts and transport companies have been raised many times with the Resorts. They do not see it as important because they know they are always full in peak season. One less liability to hold. And in low ski season, they know that that time is populated generally by budget skiers who won’t pay airfares in the range that you suggest.

I don’t see jets taking over the turboprop market. They use significantly more fuel as they are heavier per seat. They seem to be 100 or more seats .

Short jet routes are also uneconomic as they don’t spend significant times at their cruise altitude. They also don’t get you there faster on those routes compared with turboprops.

Embraer used to make a 35 seat E135 jet but that went out of production years ago. I think the Bae146 has 90? Seats but it runs on 4 engines. Super quiet but in regional Australia I don’t think the kangaroos will care.

hardly. "Normal" people fly to ASE, EGE & other Colorado airports apart from DEN.

Why ? Cos you can almost always get Qantas/American/Alaska frequent flyer seats into other Colorado airports from one of many LA or San Fran airports + San Diego & Sacramento + many of the snow holiday package fares include ASE, EGE etc. at the same price as DEN, if book early enough when there are seats.

Think part of the reason Vail resorts took over Falls Creek & Mt Hotham was because of falling use except for Victorian locals & that Vail has the Epic pass(season lift passes now covering many many resorts around the world).

BNE/ABX is not a turboprop market. There are no nonstops. Instead of skiing Australia, most Qlders go to ZQN. Cheapest return fares BNE to ZQN start about AUD$440 (in last weeks NZ sale, slected dates eg. early SEPT, which was supposedly $200 off), but generally $640 or lot more.

BNE/ABX in a F100/F70 must be just under 2 hours.

 

[jb747]

Something like an A220 would break Rex very quickly.

If AJ were actually inclined towards buying anything for QF, I could see them being used to replace the 717s. Beyond that though, I don't see it being used in regional Australia.

Populations...Wagga is about half the size of the combined Albury/Wodonga. Flights to Melbourne are only done by Rex, and I wouldn't put the overall load factor at much above 50%. Whilst the train service isn't wonderful, it's pretty cheap, and it's an easy drive. Sydney is out of casual driving range, and so it sees much more demand. There's quite a large contingent of military passengers on the flights. Remove them from the equation, and you could probably remove one of the airlines.

There was a jet service to Qld, but it didn't last long. If I were a skier in Brisbane, I'd go to NZ.

 

[ozfflyer]

Don’t forget JetGo. Regional services with Jets is a very hard business.

Jetgo economies of scale weren't there.

Is BNE/ABX regional ?

Plenty of highly paid public servants(ATO etc.) live in Albury/Wodonga area. So there would be some ABX originating traffic.

BNE/ZQN has a few dozen nonstops a week in winter, all B738s/A320s. OOL/ZQN has 3-4 a week year round I think it is (all A320s).

 

[p--and--t]

Lurking and waiting for a "ski" reference - paid off

 

[ozfflyer]

Something like an A220 would break Rex very quickly.

If AJ were actually inclined towards buying anything for QF, I could see them being used to replace the 717s. Beyond that though, I don't see it being used in regional Australia.

Populations...Wagga is about half the size of the combined Albury/Wodonga. Flights to Melbourne are only done by Rex, and I wouldn't put the overall load factor at much above 50%. Whilst the train service isn't wonderful, it's pretty cheap, and it's an easy drive. Sydney is out of casual driving range, and so it sees much more demand. There's quite a large contingent of military passengers on the flights. Remove them from the equation, and you could probably remove one of the airlines.

There was a jet service to Qld, but it didn't last long. If I were a skier in Brisbane, I'd go to NZ.

NZ skiing is very basic & you have to drive 1-3 hours every day to get to their ski hills, which often close due to strong winds. Jetgo had 36-44 seaters. F100s cost per seat much much lower.

Regional to NZ ?

Many ports along Qld/NSW coast was flights to NZ. Look at MCY. They started with 2 week in winter only about 5 years ago MCY/AKL.

 

[Quickstatus]

huh?.
almost always get a FF ticket?.
I would contend that high volume passenger with FF tickets is an oxymoron.

That is not why Vail bought Hotham/Falls/Perisher. Certainly not falling numbers. If anything numbers are increasing. Think “Cash Cow”

Some QLD go ZQN, some OOM, some CBR, some ABX. Many also drive or catch a bus. It’s a variety.
It’s all spread out.

If Jetgo did not have economies of scale using jets what does that tell you re regional jets in regional australia and would a seasonal ski season BNE/ABX have economies of scale?. Even QF could not make Hotham work

I actually think Jetgo tried to get economies of scale but there was not enough population to support it

 

[dajop]

So pray tell, this airline that is serving ABX-BNE (and why not ABX-ADL as well??) for 3 months of the year to serve the ski season, what do they do for the rest of the year?

Comparisons with the US are non-sensical, there's umm, a factor of about 13 involved (i.e. US population is 13x Australian population).

 

[Quickstatus]

Comparisons with the US are non-sensical, there's umm, a factor of about 13 involved (i.e. US population is 13x Australian population).

People (skiers) think that the Sydney-Jindabyne-Perisher/Thredbo drive is bad have never driven on the Colorado I-70 between Denver and Vail and Aspen

 

[ozfflyer]

huh?.
almost always get a FF ticket?.
I would contend that high volume passenger with FF tickets is an oxymoron.

That is not why Vail bought Hotham/Falls/Perisher. Certainly not falling numbers. If anything numbers are increasing. Think “Cash Cow”

Some QLD go ZQN, some OOM, some ABX. Many also drive or catch a bus. It’s a variety.
It’s all spread out.

LAX/EGE has daily A319 with something like 140 seats. Maybe 10-20 ff seats on most days with exception of Fri/Sun.

Falls/Hotham have lost over the past 10-15 years a huge number of Qld skiers.

Been to Hotham or Falls in Sept lately. Like ghost towns. Used to be full of Qlders.

Most Qlders go to ZQN now. Almost none fly to OOM, as connections at SYD aren't good & only 34 seat Saabs so very few cheaper seats. Almost no one drives or gets bus from QLD to OZ ski resorts now. That all ended with Compass Mark 1.

Some don't ski OZ or NZ anymore & go to Japan/Canada/USA with USA having the cheapest options.

If say Alliance did 2 flights a week for VA, BNE/ABX Sun am & Friday pm to start with & straight back to BNE, they could fill with skiers doing 5 night packages in one direction & Albury residents could go north to BNE & beyond to CNS eg. on 5 night or longer packages.

 

[drron]

We should start a Get the Antonov 140 Rex campaign.I would fly it.....once.

 

[ozfflyer]

People (skiers) think that the Sydney-Jindabyne-Perisher/Thredbo drive is bad have never driven on the Colorado I-70 between Denver and Vail and Aspen

Vail airport to Vail is a very easy 40 mins drive on a major interstate hwy with speed limits of up to 75 mph (121 kph). Done it dozens of times. Twice have been slowed down by snow on rd.

DEN/Vail is just under 2 hours, as long as don't try to do Fri pm in ski season. Much of it out of DEN is 6 or 8 lanes & then when hit Mts it goes back to 4 lanes.

Have a look at this time lapse video of drive from Denver to Copper with stop at Frisco. Vail is 20 mins beyond Copper on similar rd.

 

[Quickstatus]

I’m glad if most QLD go cross Tasman. We need a reduction in crowds on the ski fields.

September skiing is quiet everywhere. Not because there are no flights. If you can’t drag locals out skiing in September you think you can entice QLD - with discount ski packages?. But problem with discounts is that it reduces the margins.

5 night packages don’t work unless it’s school holidays which don’t start until late September, by which time you should drag out the rock skis. They also don’t work for. Fri-Sun or Sun Fri schedule.
Most on the SYD-OOM ZL flights are incoming to OOM on Friday night and Sunday night. So the return to SYD on Fri night and return to OOM on Sunday night sees very light loads in the ski season.

I can google you multiple I-70 disaster traffic jams.

 

[ozfflyer]

So pray tell, this airline that is serving ABX-BNE (and why not ABX-ADL as well??) for 3 months of the year to serve the ski season, what do they do for the rest of the year?

Comparisons with the US are non-sensical, there's umm, a factor of about 13 involved (i.e. US population is 13x Australian population).

Alliance have a big fleet of F100/F70s. Ask them. They don't seem to work them that hard. When they get them for almost nothing you don't have to work them hard. Just like Allegiant in the USA with their mad dogs & Breeze with their Emb195s.

ADL/ABX would probably work in 1 direction in winter, although would any locals from ABX want to go to ADL in winter ? Wine Barossa ?

 

[ozfflyer]

I’m glad if most QLD go cross Tasman. We need a reduction in crowds on the ski fields.

September skiing is quiet everywhere. Not because there are no flights. If you can’t drag locals out skiing in September you think you can entice QLD - with discount ski packages?. But problem with discounts is that it reduces the margins.

5 night packages don’t work unless it’s school holidays which don’t start until late September, by which time you should drag out the rock skis. They also don’t work for. Fri-Sun or Sun Fri schedule.
Most on the SYD-OOM ZL flights are incoming to OOM on Friday night and Sunday night. So the return to SYD on Fri night and return to OOM on Sunday night sees very light loads in the ski season.

I can google you multiple I-70 disaster traffic jams.

Hotels/apartments all do deals in Sept. They have to, there's no one there.

Snow is just as good at start of Sept as end of August, in fact over past 10 years, it's actually been better on average.

5 night packages work all season, especially if pax can get to ski a few hours Sun pm & most of Fri. That leaves weekends for Vic & Abx locals. Any idiot can sell a weekend package to locals. That's when it busy.

As stated above, SYD/OOM doesn't work in Saabs. Many years ago, Ansett used to fly jets BNE/OOM nonstop on Sundays using F28s.

There are often traffic jams everywhere. Fri Denver westbound & Sun back to Denver are always very very busy, but traffic is not going to EGE Sun pm, it's mostly going back towards DEN & similarly EGE/VAIL Fri.

BTW - qld school holidays are a week before NSW school holidays & many Qlders go skiing then, esp to NZ. Plenty of snow then usually.

 

[Quickstatus]

All good ideas but I still think the economics don’t stack up especially the model where you need a package to entice people to come. Think package = discount.
Feel free to approach Alliance/VA but I suggest that VA are rationalising their offerings and trying to get rid of marginal operations.

Yes BNE-ABX is regional

 

[dajop]

All good ideas but I still think the economics don’t stack up especially the model where you need a package to entice people to come. Think package = discount.

Yes, packages don't always provide a sustainable business for airlines. Look at the collapse of Thomas Cook airlines in the UK - one of the big contributing factors was reliance on selling travel packages.