Building a stronger Qantas

[awilcockson]

Xenophon attacks Qantas management | The Australian

Some creative accounting going on in Mascot

Senator Xenophon speculated that Qantas was using "a strategy of private equity selloff by stealth" to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act.
"That doesn't stop you moving assets out of Qantas and into an airline you own, but isn't controlled by the Act."
He said Qantas group would end up with a whole lot of subsidiaries it could base overseas, using poorly paid foreign crews and engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards.
"In time, if the Qantas group wants to make a buck it can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit," he said.

That's pretty much what I said back on page 1 of this thread, sale of QF by stealth.

 

[TiredOldFlyer]

Don't forget the years of training (and the cost ) and the years of accumulating hours often in New Guinea flying overloaded 210's to
remote sites. Some pilots were lucky and had direct entry or ex air force but many have had to put up with several years of odd hours
loading and unloading, no work, impossible strips, demanding passengers and owners etc. etc

Aviation has not been kind to most - do not begrudge the fortunate ones - give thanks for every completed flight and the skill of the pilot.

 

[samh004]

That's pretty much what I said back on page 1 of this thread, sale of QF by stealth.

Wouldn't be too hard to legislate that they couldn't sell off these foreign offshoots then, would it? After all, if the Qantas board were serious about starting a new business and keeping it at the end of the day, I'm sure they wouldn't object to the government imposing some restrictions on future sales.

Not sure I'd agree that Australian standards are the best though, they're not the worst either, but just because it's Australian doesn't mean it's better than anything else. Cathay Pacific and SIA are very safe, and they're not Australian.




 

[drron]

Well quite frankly the Pilots Union,The 730 report and Senator Xenophon need a little bit more knowledge of economics.Woeful really.
So JQ has a lower proportion of revenue and a higher proportion of profit than the percentage of planes they have in the fleet.Now isn't that exactly what is meant tp happen with the low cost part of your business?
On top of that there is no breakdown of the proportion of revenue or profit of the QF part between QFi and QFd.

Some of the good Senator's examples of cost shifting Such as JQs free gate at T2 in Syd are definitely not a cross subsidisation from QFi.
As well why does it surprise anyone that JQ executives are paid by the QF group.I bet QFis and QFds execs are also payed by the group rather than QFi or QFd.

Even in those claims where it does appear to be subsidisation by QFi there is no evidence presented that it is QFi paying the bills or the QF holding company.Totally different.

So I would add another piece of advice to jb747's financial advice to pilots-
a)Keep your first wife.
B)Keep clear of FAs
c)keep clear of your union's accountants.

Just a brief word on QF Captains salaries-quite frankly they are worth more than $400000 per year.The problem though is what are their competitors Captains getting?

 

[ajw373]

Interesting article that sums the whole situation up perfectly.

Sky's the limit for Qantas workers

AUSSIES should get set for chaos at our airports as we head back to the bad old days of union mischief, says Janet Albrechtsen from The Australian.

GET set for chaos at our airports as we head back to the bad old days of union mischief.

In April, unions threatened "guerilla warfare" against Qantas right across the globe if the airline brought in managers to replace striking employees. Then, last week, Qantas engineers and pilots threatened strikes in response to the restructuring plans announced by Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce.

... <continues>.

 

[ajw373]

Well quite frankly the Pilots Union,The 730 report and Senator Xenophon need a little bit more knowledge of economics.Woeful really.
So JQ has a lower proportion of revenue and a higher proportion of profit than the percentage of planes they have in the fleet.Now isn't that exactly what is meant tp happen with the low cost part of your business?
On top of that there is no breakdown of the proportion of revenue or profit of the QF part between QFi and QFd.

So true, on your last point check out the figures for this past year in the link below. Qantas has actually broken down profit/loss on QFi and QFd as well as Jetstar, Frequent flyer etc.

Qantas more than doubles net profit | News.com.au

 

[ajw373]

The actual amount Qantas pilots gets is irrelevant, what is relevant is what is the market rate and conditions. Ie how do they compare to captains in similar roles and experience with other airlines, both within Australia and outside of Australia. They are the figures AND working conditions I would like to see.

 

[drewbles]

How do you know that Red Roo is even a single person :?:

I have it on very good authority that it's a single person

*edit*
I have it on better authority that my authority is not quite right and there may indeed be more than one Red Roo (And here I was thinking Qantas just had one plane... I only ever fly on one! )

 

[Oneworldplus2]

FY results out today too.

 

[serfty]

AJ and the myth of the 82%

Looks like AJ has suceeded in perpetrating this:

... 82 per cent of customers choosing an airline other that Qantas to fly overseas ...

It should be:

... 82 per cent of customers choosing an airline other that Qantas EXCLUDING JETSTAR to fly overseas ...

In May, Jetstar had 8.2% of these travellers. One has to ask themselves why has Alan Joyce Excluded the Qantas Group's Jetstar passengers?

 

[Major]

The actual amount Qantas pilots gets is irrelevant, what is relevant is what is the market rate and conditions. Ie how do they compare to captains in similar roles and experience with other airlines, both within Australia and outside of Australia. They are the figures AND working conditions I would like to see.

I agree with your 1st sentence. But what is relevant is that the guy up the pointy end in the LH seat has the knowledge and experience when the .... hits the fan.

If QF ( and VA ) had a whole bunch of jb747's up their sleeve then I would be one relaxed flyer.

 

[gumpy]

I just read the ausbt article on the new premium airline...

what's the point of having cabins better than the QF A380 on A320s? I personally only appreciate the nice stuff when the flight's are over 5hrs and become crucial if the flight's are over 8 hrs... What's the point of having the best flatbeds if you won't have enough time to get proper sleep?

 

[harvyk]

Re: AJ and the myth of the 82%

Looks like AJ has suceeded in perpetrating this:

... 82 per cent of customers choosing an airline other that Qantas to fly overseas ...

It should be:

... 82 per cent of customers choosing an airline other that Qantas EXCLUDING JETSTAR to fly overseas ...

In May, Jetstar had 8.2% of these travellers. One has to ask themselves why has Alan Joyce Excluded the Qantas Group's Jetstar passengers?

Technically

... 82 per cent of customers choosing an airline other that Qantas to fly overseas ...

is not a lie, 82% of customers are chosing an airline other than QANTAS to fly overseas, it is however very misleading and typical of the "we're one company only when it suits" mentality which exists between QF and JQ, and proof that the mentality extends to beyond customer relations.

Even if QF are not actively subsidising JQ on paper, their words are certainly speaking very loudly as to which airline they would rather be running into the future. Infact if I was a QF shareholder (with any clout) I'd be looking very carefully at the boards actions and reports (both written and verbal) and even potentially mounting legal action if anything was not squeeky clean in protecting QF (eg talking JQ up at the expense of talking QF down)

 

[medhead]

Pilots or cabin crew don't pay for their accommodation.

I don't think I really suggested that, I'm speculating that they get an allowance when they have to [-]love[/-]* live away that covers the cost of accommodation and meals among other things. Whether that allowance is paid to the pilots or direct to the hotel, it seems to me that those extras about base are being lumped into the pilots salaries.

* amusing fat finger moment. Freudian almost.

Well quite frankly the Pilots Union,The 730 report and Senator Xenophon need a little bit more knowledge of economics.Woeful really.
So JQ has a lower proportion of revenue and a higher proportion of profit than the percentage of planes they have in the fleet.Now isn't that exactly what is meant tp happen with the low cost part of your business?
On top of that there is no breakdown of the proportion of revenue or profit of the QF part between QFi and QFd.

I don't know, I would expect that the cost of aircraft would be significant part of the expenses for an airline. That doesn't change for a low cost airline. So the proportional comparison of revenue and profit is highly relevant. Salaries are quoted as being 5% of qantas costs. That provides a good indicator of the possible variations that a LCC should be able to achieve.

Interesting article that sums the whole situation up perfectly.

Actually that is an Opinion piece not an article. In fact a fairly typical Albrechtsen union bashing opinion that could have been written by Alan Joyce. Its only value is on the dunny wall.

Well, actually, it is a useful study of Albrechtsen going against the parochial views of her core readership of right wing nutbags in support of big business.

The actual amount Qantas pilots gets is irrelevant, .

The actual amount is highly relevant to judging the information being supplied by Joyce, and repeated by the likes of Albrechtsen.

 

[serfty]

Technically

is not a lie, 82% of customers are chosing an airline other than QANTAS to fly overseas, it is however very misleading and typical of the "we're one company only when it suits" mentality which exists between QF and JQ, and proof that the mentality extends to beyond customer relations.
...

AJ specifically excludes JQ PAX from his figures; really thaey should be included under Qantas Groups.

Here's the actual AJ quote: (http://www.qantasanswers.com.au/media/736/building_a_stronger_qantas_-_sydney_-_16_august_2011.pdf)

...
Right now 82 out of every 100 people flying out of Australia are choosing to fly with an airline other than Qantas, not including Jetstar. ...

 

[medhead]

No - AJ specifically excludes JQ PAX from his figures. They are not in the 82%, they are simply not there. It's really 82% of 91.8% going by the May JQ figures of 8.2% who are not flying QF/JQ.

Here's the actual AJ quote: (http://www.qantasanswers.com.au/media/736/building_a_stronger_qantas_-_sydney_-_16_august_2011.pdf)

Yep and the major problem is the " not including jetstar" as jetstar is included in the 82 part.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

having had family work as cabin crew the allowances are based on meals and incidentals while away. accommodation is not included. the allowances for meals are extremely generous and equate to a breakfast, lunch and dinner (as applicable) at hotel restaurant prices.

many of the cabin crew did not use their meal allowances (either too tired, or already ate on the plane, or bought snack at local convenience stores) and were able to pocket significant extras from their trip. Tokyo was popular... meals were extraordinarily expensive there a few years ago and a box of rhyvita in the luggage could net you several hundred dollars in extra take home pay from your food allowance.

i am assuming (big assumption maybe) that the 12 year rate applies to the length of time you have been in qantas, not the length of time you are at the controls of that aircraft type. Otherwise pilots wound never move to a new aircraft type, you wouldn't get a captain to move from the 767 to the A330...

So if you have been a pilot at QF for more than 12 years you would go onto the 12 year A380 rate.

 

[QF WP]

i am assuming (big assumption maybe) that the 12 year rate applies to the length of time you have been in qantas, not the length of time you are at the controls of that aircraft type. Otherwise pilots wound never move to a new aircraft type, you wouldn't get a captain to move from the 767 to the A330...

So if you have been a pilot at QF for more than 12 years you would go onto the 12 year A380 rate.

I was thinking about this as well. My understanding is normally a pilot who is trained on one type of aircraft would progress down the column and eventually hit the earning ceiling for that aircraft type and experience.

If they go to another aircraft type, then do they not start on the first rung (0-3 years) and progress down. Is it years of experience with that type of aircraft that is the determinate? Looking at the earning scales, there is a slight drop in income by moving; however I could understand that being the case.

Perhaps a question best put to jb747 in his thread (which I have done regardless).

 

[markis10]

The actual amount Qantas pilots gets is irrelevant, what is relevant is what is the market rate and conditions. Ie how do they compare to captains in similar roles and experience with other airlines, both within Australia and outside of Australia. They are the figures AND working conditions I would like to see.

It's not hard to find if you look, but somewhat irrelevant outside of Australia where different costs and taxes apply.

 

[markis10]

i am assuming (big assumption maybe) that the 12 year rate applies to the length of time you have been in qantas, not the length of time you are at the controls of that aircraft type. Otherwise pilots wound never move to a new aircraft type, you wouldn't get a captain to move from the 767 to the A330...

So if you have been a pilot at QF for more than 12 years you would go onto the 12 year A380 rate.

I am pretty sure it's years on type, not years as a captain or years of service.