Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L class

[JB expat]

I'm basically double checking up on our lousy work-mandated travel agent. When I tried to book a Qantas Circle Asia trip (business class - Mel to Sing to HK to Shanghai to Tokyo to Melb), I was told there are no seats left in business class for the very first leg (even if I fly to Singapore via Sydney). Given that I don't want to leave home a day early and cannot leave a day late, I told them to book me in economy for the first leg and put me on the wait list for business. They told me this was fine but that the fare would not change - I agreed to this.

I just received the confirmed itinerary from our mandated travel agency (who has left me very unimpressed over the years) and it looks something like this:

• Mel to Sing L Class (Economy/Coach)

• rest of trip D Class (Business)

I am wondering if they have booked this correctly - I know nothing about the airline systems but I would have expected to see D Class for the entire trip with the only difference being my seat allocation for the first leg being in economy. I want to make sure that they haven't screwed up my chances to get a business class seat if it opens.

Anyone know?

Thank you

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I'm basically double checking up on our lousy work-mandated travel agent. When I tried to book a Qantas Circle Asia trip (business class - Mel to Sing to HK to Shanghai to Tokyo to Melb), I was told there are no seats left in business class for the very first leg (even if I fly to Singapore via Sydney). Given that I don't want to leave home a day early and cannot leave a day late, I told them to book me in economy for the first leg and put me on the wait list for business. They told me this was fine but that the fare would not change - I agreed to this.

I just received the confirmed itinerary from our mandated travel agency (who has left me very unimpressed over the years) and it looks something like this:

• Mel to Sing L Class (Economy/Coach)

• rest of trip D Class (Business)

I am wondering if they have booked this correctly - I know nothing about the airline systems but I would have expected to see D Class for the entire trip with the only difference being my seat allocation for the first leg being in economy. I want to make sure that they haven't screwed up my chances to get a business class seat if it opens.

Anyone know?

Thank you

There's two separate issues - flight segments, and the ticket itself.

Individual flight segments will show the class of travel on a flight-by-flight basis. Hence L class for MEL-SIN and D class for the rest.

However - the underlying ticket is what's important to your current question - that will be in D class for the whole ticket. Rules around the circle-asia fare determine that 'downgrades' are possible for legs where business class seating is not available - as you have done on the MEL-SIN leg. But the ticket as a whole is D class and allows you to 'upgrade' if seats become available.

You can get your agent to follow up on the waitlist periodically - see if there is anything they can do.

 

[drron]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Search on the Qantas site and see whether there are any J seats from MEL,SYD or BNE on the day you wish to fly.If so you have my permission to put a rocket under your agent's.......

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Search on the Qantas site and see whether there are any J seats from MEL,SYD or BNE on the day you wish to fly.If so you have my permission to put a rocket under your agent's.......

There may be J seats - but the OP will need to look for D seats. A good agent might be able to get QF to change J->D

 

[drron]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I forgot that as we have a good agent.Was able to come home a day earlier on next trip even though QF had only 3 J seats on sale and we naturally needed 2 on that flight.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Thanks all. I will check the Brisbane flights to Sing and recheck Syd to Sing. I have to use our work approved travel agent - why is beyond me as they add no value and get a decent fee for each booking. I have no confidence in them doing anything that requires the slightest bit of work on their part.

 

[Deleted member]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Thanks all. I will check the Brisbane flights to Sing and recheck Syd to Sing. I have to use our work approved travel agent - why is beyond me as they add no value and get a decent fee for each booking. I have no confidence in them doing anything that requires the slightest bit of work on their part.

Maybe do your own research first ( next time) and give that itinerary to the TA?

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Has the ticket been issued yet? If so, check carefully the fare basis next to the MEL/SIN flight and make sure it reflects the J class fare paid as per all the rest of the sectors.

If the waitlist clears you want to have a J clasd ticket to match so they can reval the eticket ie you don't want to be told that you have only paid for an econony fare and will therefore have to travel in whY.

Double check that the TA has actually waitlisted you assuming that you can for D class.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Maybe do your own research first ( next time) and give that itinerary to the TA?

I do - I checked both Melb & Syd - didn't think of checking Brisbane. I need to fly on that day thus I had limited choices (I checked via Brisbane 2 days ago and they do have bness class discount fare available but I'd have to leave home much earlier on Sunday than I want to anyway so that wouldn't have been good anyway).

I did notice that there are still business class seats available from Melb to Sing on my travel day - just not in the discount business class. I am querying the travel agent as they never offered the more expensive class to me and I believe our company policy would permit it if the cheaper business class is not available. I cannot tell you how CR*P I think they are. - see my next reply

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Has the ticket been issued yet? If so, check carefully the fare basis next to the MEL/SIN flight and make sure it reflects the J class fare paid as per all the rest of the sectors.

If the waitlist clears you want to have a J clasd ticket to match so they can reval the eticket ie you don't want to be told that you have only paid for an econony fare and will therefore have to travel in whY.

Double check that the TA has actually waitlisted you assuming that you can for D class.

Once I input my FF number into the booking (which the TA had failed to do despite it being in our corporate system - I'm telling you, they are beyond awful - I wish my PA could do my bookings - she simply is not allowed - all must go through corporate TA), I was able to see that I am indeed wait listed for a business seat so that's some comfort.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I do - I checked both Melb & Syd - didn't think of checking Brisbane. I need to fly on that day thus I had limited choices (I checked via Brisbane 2 days ago and they do have bness class discount fare available but I'd have to leave home much earlier on Sunday than I want to anyway so that wouldn't have been good anyway).

I did notice that there are still business class seats available from Melb to Sing on my travel day - just not in the discount business class. I am querying the travel agent as they never offered the more expensive class to me and I believe our company policy would permit it if the cheaper business class is not available. I cannot tell you how CR*P I think they are. - see my next reply

If BNE was available on the Sun (QF51 in 'D' class) you could fly ex-BNE if the fare conditions permitted an open jaw ie BNE/Asia/MEL.Maybe fly your better half up to BNE for a date night on Sat & see Strictly Ballroom the musical or any number of other things before you fly to SIN the next day & they fly back to MEL. Good brownie points.

Once I input my FF number into the booking (which the. TA had failed to do despite it being in our corporate system - I'm telling you, they are beyond awful - I wish my PA could do my bookings - she simply is not allowed - all must go through corporate TA), I was able to see that I am indeed wait listed for a business seat so that's some comfort.

I realise you're SG but it got me wondering whether QF would queue the booking off to yield mngt for review to see if they'd be prepared to release another 'D' class seat for the day you want MEL/SIN?

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

If BNE was available on the Sun (QF51 in 'D' class) you could fly ex-BNE if the fare conditions permitted an open jaw ie BNE/Asia/MEL.Maybe fly your better half up to BNE for a date night on Sat & see Strictly Ballroom the musical or any number of other things before you fly to SIN the next day & they fly back to MEL. Good brownie points.

Wouldn't that be nice! - cannot arrange for this trip but worth keeping in mind if this happens again

I realise you're SG but it got me wondering whether QF would queue the booking off to yield mngt for review to see if they'd be prepared to release another 'D' class seat for the day you want MEL/SIN?

I just spoke to someone - they won't touch the booking as it was made through a TA (they said something about them buying bulk seats and they can't even see what I paid for them so they can't tell me how much more the Business Flex would be than my Business Saver fare). I asked if they would bring me business food to my economy seat given that I paid business...she didn't think that was funny! I also tried to find out what happens if they have unsold Business Flex seats the day prior to departure and her answer was vague - they may process upgrade requests before wait lists - something about an algorithm and status blah blah. I will have to wait to see how this pans out.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I just spoke to someone - they won't touch the booking as it was made through a TA (they said something about them buying bulk seats and they can't even see what I paid for them so they can't tell me how much more the Business Flex would be than my Business Saver fare). I asked if they would bring me business food to my economy seat given that I paid business...she didn't think that was funny!

I also tried to find out what happens if they have unsold Business Flex seats the day prior to departure and her answer was vague - they may process upgrade requests before wait lists - something about an algorithm and status blah blah. I will have to wait to see how this pans out.

Similar to Henry Ford with customers being able to choose any colour for their T-model as long as it was black, you can book any seat in J as long as it's 'D' class - there are no other J buckets available to book into on the Circle Asia fare.

When you're talking about Business Flex and Business Saver fares they are only available for sale as a MEL/SIN/MEL type itinerary or maybe on some kind of open jaw itinerary so that is a completely different animal we're talking about here.

I would ask the agent to contact their QF agency rep and ask if they can queue the pnr off to yield management and see if they would be happy to release another 'D' class seat ie clear your waitlist. I would think that would be more valuable to the airline than a 'U' class seat however I guess it depends how many upgrade requests they've got for that flight/date and the PCV of the pax requesting them.

What cities besides SIN do you need to stop at? If you had MEL/SIN/NRT/MEL for example I wonder what the cost would be if you had a business class Saver fare MEL/SIN - NRT/MEL then a separate sector fare SIN/NRT? There may not be a huge difference between that and the Circle Asia fare you've been quoted. Worth asking the TA to price it as above for comparison purposes.

QF would not know what fare basis or fare the agent is charging - all they know is the TA is holding D class seats.

I don't think any TA gets an allocation of "bulk seats" particularly in J. That sounds more like Easy Jet charter stuff Gatwick to Malaga in whY.

 

[medhead]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

Similar to Henry Ford with customers being able to choose any colour for their T-model as long as it was black, you can book any seat in J as long as it's 'D' class - there are no other J buckets available to book into on the Circle Asia fare.

This is the issue really, the OP booked a product that uses D fares for business, and L for economy. The issue with the L leg is it will earn as economy, not flexible economy for YBH classes. So a situation were you might have paid more than YBH economy price for the leg but will earn less.

Im this situation you (the OP) might have been better off not booking a circle asia fare. Is there some reason that this product was used? Instead of, say, a multi leg booking, which would have allowed flexibility in fare for each leg.

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I would ask the agent to contact their QF agency rep and ask if they can queue the pnr off to yield management and see if they would be happy to release another 'D' class seat ie clear your waitlist. I would think that would be more valuable to the airline than a 'U' class seat however I guess it depends how many upgrade requests they've got for that flight/date and the PCV of the pax requesting them.

It is very hard to communicate with the agent - it is all by email and their response time is slow. I have a feeling that we are one of the agents small business clients and we are treated as such...globally, my company may have a bigger relationship with them, but here in Australia we are small. I will keep checking my booking as it gets closer to see what happens and perhaps push it the week before if I see there are business seats available (based on looking at availability for that leg).

What cities besides SIN do you need to stop at? If you had MEL/SIN/NRT/MEL for example I wonder what the cost would be if you had a business class Saver fare MEL/SIN - NRT/MEL then a separate sector fare SIN/NRT? There may not be a huge difference between that and the Circle Asia fare you've been quoted. Worth asking the TA to price it as above for comparison purposes.

MEL/SIN/HK/Shanghai/NRT/MEL - the fare was much much more if not Circle Asia

QF would not know what fare basis or fare the agent is charging - all they know is the TA is holding D class seats.

I don't think any TA gets an allocation of "bulk seats" particularly in J. That sounds more like Easy Jet charter stuff Gatwick to Malaga in whY.

Thanks for the explanation - it was just clear that they couldn't see the fare/wouldn't touch the booking

 

[JB expat]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

This is the issue really, the OP booked a product that uses D fares for business, and L for economy. The issue with the L leg is it will earn as economy, not flexible economy for YBH classes. So a situation were you might have paid more than YBH economy price for the leg but will earn less.

I'm not sure that is the case - the product is a Business Class Circle Asia - I needed/wanted to start the journey on a certain date - no business class seats left for Circle Asia thus I was offered business seats the day prior to my requested date or the day after - neither suited so I told them to put me in an economy seat. Fare quote did not change...only the comfort of my seat/quality of meals.

Im this situation you (the OP) might have been better off not booking a circle asia fare. Is there some reason that this product was used? Instead of, say, a multi leg booking, which would have allowed flexibility in fare for each leg.

The non-circle Asia Fare quote was thousands (many) more - could not do under company policy

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

The non-circle Asia Fare quote was thousands (many) more - could not do under company policy

I can appreciate that. Some of the intra-asia flights in business class would cost an arm and a leg on CX. And Shanghai-Tokyo comes in at around AUD2000 one way for the very short 2-hour flight on JL.

There are much cheaper ways of doing those flights, but not with the convenience of a single circle ticket.

 

[dajop]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

My partners done a few circle fares recently (Circle Pacific, not Asia, but same principle), and D class MEL-SIN or SYD-Sin on QF has been a problem. Usually MEL-KUL-SIN on MH or using BA for SYD-SIN are potential solutions.

 

[jamesatfish]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I also tried to find out what happens if they have unsold Business Flex seats the day prior to departure and her answer was vague - they may process upgrade requests before wait lists - something about an algorithm and status blah blah. I will have to wait to see how this pans out.

I think you'll find that if your waitlist doesn't clear before they start allocating points upgrades to P1 members you'll be out of luck - it seems they'll switch unsold J inventory to U before D.

I've had this same situation in the past on ACIR* fares - the early morning flights SYD-CBR always seem to be very short of D inventory, and I often find myself in Economy earning Red eDeal status credits having paid for a First ticket. On one occasion we arrived into Sydney early enough to switch to an earlier SYD-CBR flight, which just happened to have 3 U class seats available. I asked about moving back to Business on that flight and was told that we could certainly do so, as a points upgrade from our L class seats. It took some argument to get them to recognise the underlying fare class and move us into Business without cost.

The Circle Asia/Pacific fares are certainly great value, but you need a good agent or good booking tools to make the most of them. The OneWorld planner used to be fantastic for this purpose but since they 'enhanced' the site to validate the *ONE* rules before allowing you to select individual flights it's a pain in the backside to plan the Circle fares that way.

What date is your MEL-SIN flight? Perhaps some creative routing could be found to get you into Business for that sector?

 

[medhead]

Re: Business class trip - no business class seats available forone leg & Qantas L cla

I'm not sure that is the case - the product is a Business Class Circle Asia - I needed/wanted to start the journey on a certain date - no business class seats left for Circle Asia thus I was offered business seats the day prior to my requested date or the day after - neither suited so I told them to put me in an economy seat. Fare quote did not change...only the comfort of my seat/quality of meals.

Well that is the case, the Circle asia fare in business uses D fares. The circle asia in economy uses L. This matches what you've reported of having D fares, not being able to get business when there is no D available (but J is apparently) and having the economy leg booked in L. If the waitlist doesn't come through I believe you will earn as per L on that economy leg, i.e. economy, not business and not flexible economy.