Carbon Tax

[awilcockson]

Is anyone getting sick of the "the carbon tax is good for you .. now go back to watching Masterchef and leave us to worry about the planet" radio ads? Just how much of my money are they wasting on them?

The line about "this is a tax on the largest polluting companies, not on individuals" is just a complete crock. Does anyone seriously believe that the companies who have to pay the tax aren't just going to directly pass the costs on to the consumer?

They also bang on about how the carbon tax will force polluters to look for cheaper, cleaner alternatives. I think there is a big assumption here regarding economy of scales that means this isn't going to work. Let's take electricity for example. Just how many companies are there in Australia that (or even better Queensland) that produce electricity? Wikipedia lists 50 "Power companies" for australia, but a quick look through shows that a lot of them are either simply distributers or exploration companies, not actually producers. So ... considering that we have a very small number of companies actually generating electricity, some would say a very closed market, what are the chances that any of them are going to invest in new technology to bring down the cost of electricity. They will all just raise prices across the board and maintain the status quo. Or am I just being pessimistic?

 

[awilcockson]

Brilliant, now they are spending $4m of our money to try and sell the carbon tax to us.

$4m mail-out coming soon to your letterbox, a brochure explaining carbon tax facts | News.com.au

 

[medhead]

Brilliant, now they are spending $4m of our money to try and sell the carbon tax to us.

$4m mail-out coming soon to your letterbox, a brochure explaining carbon tax facts | News.com.au

I hope you felt the same about the $15m Fridge Magnets

Fridge door terror kit a $15m 'waste' - smh.com.au *



* sorry if that link doesn't work, it is a bit funny on safari on the imac in the J lounge.

 

[Mal]

The line about "this is a tax on the largest polluting companies, not on individuals" is just a complete crock. Does anyone seriously believe that the companies who have to pay the tax aren't just going to directly pass the costs on to the consumer?

Oh wow, only 10% of households (I think this was the term they used) will be worse off under a carbon tax... And somehow I manage to be within that 10% based on their online calculations.

Hello. I am not rich, My income is not excessive, I may choose to not marry, and not produce children but that shouldn't push me into that 10%. Methinks that this is a complete lie by Gillard and co.

 

[dfcatch]

I hope you felt the same about the $15m Fridge Magnets

Fridge door terror kit a $15m 'waste' - smh.com.au *



* sorry if that link doesn't work, it is a bit funny on safari on the imac in the J lounge.

Politics aside - I would support anti-terror measures anyday over a carbon tax - and I would be happy to wear my share of the cost.

And yes - I do consider terrorism a much greater threat to our way of life than "climate change" - which while we're at it - used to be called "global warming"..... why is that??? Why the name change......?????

The problem for any government (regardless of political party) when it comes to anti-terror measures - is that there is no way to measure whether it was successful.

No-one will ever thank a government for preventing terrorism - as opponents will just pretend the threat doesn't exist.

But if an attack ever occurred - the government would be blamed.

A government's first obligation is to protect its citizens.

The issue of defense versus environmental policy is not even remotely comparable IMHO!

Let's stick to comparing the GST to the Carbon Tax, or the effectiveness of the proposed tax.

BTW Medhead - you still haven't answered my question...... If the government did an about-face tomorrow and ditched the carbon tax, and even questioned the need to do anything, would you support the new government position, or would you continue to strongly support the current carbon tax proposal?

 

[TonyHancock]

My concern with "climate change" or "global warming" is that we, as a world, might be placing our eggs in one basket. Is it just possible that the earth is in a phase of trajectory that places it closer to the sun. I don't know one way or another, but I can't get one thing out of my mind....Wasn't the earth warmer than it currently is in the middle ages? :shock:

 

[dfcatch]

My concern with "climate change" or "global warming" is that we, as a world, might be placing our eggs in one basket. Is it just possible that the earth is in a phase of trajectory that places it closer to the sun. I don't know one way or another, but I can't get one thing out of my mind....Wasn't the earth warmer than it currently is in the middle ages? :shock:

I tell you what guys - I wish global warming would kick back in and hurry up about it - I'm freezing in the water up here at the moment......not to mention that I've had to swap the shorts for jeans at least 3 times in the last week!

But - at least I'm saving carbon emissions by not running the A/C

Disclaimer - I would fully offset those carbon credits if I could (by running the heating), but alas - I have no heating

 

[medhead]

Politics aside - I would support anti-terror measures anyday over a carbon tax - and I would be happy to wear my share of the cost.And yes - I do consider terrorism a much greater threat to our way of life than "climate change" - which while we're at it - used to be called "global warming"..... why is that??? Why the name change......?????The problem for any government (regardless of political party) when it comes to anti-terror measures - is that there is no way to measure whether it was successful.No-one will ever thank a government for preventing terrorism - as opponents will just pretend the threat doesn't exist.But if an attack ever occurred - the government would be blamed.A government's first obligation is to protect its citizens. The issue of defense versus environmental policy is not even remotely comparable IMHO!Let's stick to comparing the GST to the Carbon Tax, or the effectiveness of the proposed tax.BTW Medhead - you still haven't answered my question...... If the government did an about-face tomorrow and ditched the carbon tax, and even questioned the need to do anything, would you support the new government position, or would you continue to strongly support the current carbon tax proposal?

My first thought is they need a hook, line, and sinker smiley.....

My second thought is to ask exactly how $15m worth of fridge magnets prevented terrorism. I mean come on, get real. Wooh fridge magnet that'll do something. Beat you they're shaking in their boots. I can just Osama now in his cave too scared to look out cause all those australians have fridge magnets. People talk about the theater of airport security, well those fridge magnets were theater of terrorism. Absolutely and totally pointless. It is delusional to think otherwise

As for your question, it doesn't make sense at all. Are you asking me my views about AGW, because they won't change with or because of government policy and I have already outlined my view in this very thread.

 

[connieguy]

My concern with "climate change" or "global warming" is that we, as a world, might be placing our eggs in one basket. Is it just possible that the earth is in a phase of trajectory that places it closer to the sun. I don't know one way or another, but I can't get one thing out of my mind....Wasn't the earth warmer than it currently is in the middle ages? :shock:

Yes there was a Medieval Warming Period and a Little Ice Age. If they were truly global changes or more localized changes is not fully understood. Please note the time periods for the temperature to change naturally (100s of years) and the speed / level of change that is occurring how all across the planet:

:shock:

While this goes back 400,000 years, it is also of interest:



One last graph is the measured level of Methane in the atmosphere for the last 1,000 years:



If you still think this is natural, well I would be amazed. I did add the 2011 levels in the 1st and last graphs.

 

[dfcatch]

My first thought is they need a hook, line, and sinker smiley.....

My second thought is to ask exactly how $15m worth of fridge magnets prevented terrorism. I mean come on, get real. Wooh fridge magnet that'll do something. Beat you they're shaking in their boots. I can just Osama now in his cave too scared to look out cause all those australians have fridge magnets. People talk about the theater of airport security, well those fridge magnets were theater of terrorism. Absolutely and totally pointless. It is delusional to think otherwise

As for your question, it doesn't make sense at all. Are you asking me my views about AGW, because they won't change with or because of government policy and I have already outlined my view in this very thread.

See Medhead - here's the deal....

Maybe terrorism is a con, and I bought it hook line and sinker..... But if you're wrong - and an attack occurs, it's disastrous and people who die may not need to have.

On the other hand, maybe global warming is a con and you've bought it hook line and sinker..... But if I'm wrong, then my skeptical approach to the carbon tax doesn't have the same disastrous effects of being wrong on terrorism.

Perhaps a magnet didn't stop anything, but a magnet on everyone's fridge means everyone has the phone number. Same amount of money on tv ads (which I'm sure you also criticize), probably not as effective.

IMHO - if one single phone call to the hotline results in a single person's life saved - then I'm happy for the $15 million to have been spent.

BTW - my opinion would be the same if Gillard reprinted and reissued another $15 million in fridge magnets tomorrow - my opinion is not party political.

The reason for my question to you Medhead - is to work out are you a true believer of global warming? Or just a "true believer" in the ALP sense?

(I actually respect your position either way - just trying to pin it down).

Hypothetically - if the government and opposition switched policies tomorrow - (ie. Government opposed carbon tax and opposition supported it), as much as you reiterate your stance on global warming..... I just can't imagine you supporting Tony Abbott.....

 

[drron]

I think he is a true believer in the Medhead sense!

 

[cove]

While this little Sideshow has been running for a few weeks poor old Wayne Swan's most recent Budget has been run over by Australians suddenly slowing their spending instead of growing it. There is no 3% plus growth coming to the whole of Australia in 2012 and it may actually be zero growth.Could his latest Budget come in worse than 2011? Well the answer is YES actually and that great numbers wizard might be out by 30 billion or so before the surgery of a mini budget gets into his head. The high exchange rate is now putting lots of Australian jobs at risk.We are going to discuss a feel good tax for months while a large part of Australia heads for Struggle Street and all the States are going to get a haircut with a drop in their GST slush funds.Any way that is what I am thinking is happening this year.

 

[dfcatch]

While this little Sideshow has been running for a few weeks poor old Wayne Swan's most recent Budget has been run over by Australians suddenly slowing their spending instead of growing it. There is no 3% plus growth coming to the whole of Australia in 2012 and it may actually be zero growth.Could his latest Budget come in worse than 2011? Well the answer is YES actually and that great numbers wizard might be out by 30 billion or so before the surgery of a mini budget gets into his head. The high exchange rate is now putting lots of Australian jobs at risk.We are going to discuss a feel good tax for months while a large part of Australia heads for Struggle Street and all the States are going to get a haircut with a drop in their GST slush funds.Any way that is what I am thinking is happening this year.

Spot on.

But come on cove.... Feeling good about reducing carbon emissions is more important than worrying about the economy

 

[awilcockson]

I hope you felt the same about the $15m Fridge Magnets Fridge door terror kit a $15m 'waste' - smh.com.au ** sorry if that link doesn't work, it is a bit funny on safari on the imac in the J lounge.

Oh I did, don't you worry. Not that political affiliation should come in to this, but I voted liberals my entire life until I saw through the Howard lies and I sweated the entire election night and cheered with joy when Kevin booted him. I supported gillard this time around based mainly on the NBN, and the fact that Christian zealots (I'm looking at you ACL) already have too much power and the last thing I wanted was Abbott in power. So even though I voted for gillard, I definitely didn't vote for this carbon tax. While I'm putting it all out there, I have no doubt that we (humanity) are having an effect on the environment. However, for reasons expressed earlier I have no doubt that the carbon tax as proposed will have ZERO effect on fixing it.

 

[awilcockson]

Oh wow, only 10% of households (I think this was the term they used) will be worse off under a carbon tax... And somehow I manage to be within that 10% based on their online calculations.Hello. I am not rich, My income is not excessive, I may choose to not marry, and not produce children but that shouldn't push me into that 10%. Methinks that this is a complete lie by Gillard and co.

Me too! And ive got a wife and kids to support as well. And I get nothing from their kickbacks, just increased costs across the board.

 

[medhead]

See Medhead - here's the deal....

Maybe terrorism is a con, and I bought it hook line and sinker..... But if you're wrong - and an attack occurs, it's disastrous and people who die may not need to have.

On the other hand, maybe global warming is a con and you've bought it hook line and sinker..... But if I'm wrong, then my skeptical approach to the carbon tax doesn't have the same disastrous effects of being wrong on terrorism.

Perhaps a magnet didn't stop anything, but a magnet on everyone's fridge means everyone has the phone number. Same amount of money on tv ads (which I'm sure you also criticize), probably not as effective.

IMHO - if one single phone call to the hotline results in a single person's life saved - then I'm happy for the $15 million to have been spent.

BTW - my opinion would be the same if Gillard reprinted and reissued another $15 million in fridge magnets tomorrow - my opinion is not party political.

FFS! And you call me ridiculous! The hook line and sinker is because you took my bait. nothing to do with terrorism. Absolutely no suggestion that terrorism is a con.

 

[connieguy]

...While I'm putting it all out there, I have no doubt that we (humanity) are having an effect on the environment. However, for reasons expressed earlier I have no doubt that the carbon tax as proposed will have ZERO effect on fixing it.

Exactly. Too little. Too late. I just waiting to see which side of politics, seizes the moment, and uses the melting ice cap and resultant Methane release to launch out in a bold and new direction to redirect the Carbon Tax and too collect even more tax to El Nino proof Oz, to build a lot more desal plants and of course then we need more big power plants to feed them power. Probably will be gas based but hey just maybe rationality will creep in and they may be coal based. Nukes will take too long to build and with Methane shortly the dominant GHG, who will care about a little more CO2 in the atmosphere?

The only real issues is the government (Greens) and climate guys saying, sorry we got it wrong, it came on much quicker than we thought possible, the Arctic ice cap will shortly be no more in summer, we are beyond the point of return and we need to 4 deg or more proof Oz without causing loss of GDP, recession and wide spread panic.

From 2015 the game of politics will move to a new stage. Turnbull knows this, is making statements in the right direction and I suspect is waiting in the wings.

 

[medhead]

Nukes will take too long to build

The longest part of building these things is the approval process. You only need to look at the history of OPAL and that was only a research reactor - the type of thing they have in universities (building B) in the US. If things get as bad as all that there might be a good chance to cut down the approval process by a few years.

 

[connieguy]

The longest part of building these things is the approval process. You only need to look at the history of OPAL and that was only a research reactor - the type of thing they have in universities (building B) in the US. If things get as bad as all that there might be a good chance to cut down the approval process by a few years.

When La Nina leaves and El Nino returns as it will and Oz becomes a burnt piece of toast again and the ice cube melts out in the summer of 2015, I suggest a lot of things will change and change quick. Oz will be OK with a drying Murray Darling system, just our farmers will need to change to growing foods that are water efficient, sorry no rice exports and our cities will need more and more desal plants to feed the cities, to allow what water is left to grow food.

Oz can be OK in a 4 or 6 deg warmed world (significant sea level rise will take a long time to happen), just we do need to start planning for the necessary infrastructure and farming changes before the dams and rivers start to dry up again.

We once built the most magnificent engineering project in the modern world, the Snowy Hydro scheme. I'm sure when push comes to shove Oz engineers will come up with brilliant solutions as to how to provide enough water for our farmers and our cities. As for reducing our carbon emissions 5% below 2000 emissions levels, that is a waste of time, engineering talent and money. We need to turn our thoughts to water security and forget about renewables or reducing carbon emissions. Energy efficiency sure as we need the kWhs to run desal plants and maintain our standard of living. Electric vehicles sure as there is only so much oil available and the oil that is left is needed more for industrial processes than driving vehicles down the road.

But carbon emission reduction to stop runaway global warming? No way. Total waste of time, engineering hours and money. It is too late for that.

 

[odysseus]

The high exchange rate is now putting lots of Australian jobs at risk

The thing is this is principally due to the Labor government steering us well through the GFC (meaning rates didn't have to go so low as confidence was kept high) and now high resource prices and the interest rate from our success lifting the exchange rate higher. However, if the Resource super profits tax had been introduced this would have mitigated it somewhat, if we accept the self interested commentary that an increase in price of resources would reduce demand. Not that there's been any sign of that so far!

In any case, you're criticising Swan here, but I certainly don't see any indication that Abbott and co have any better idea of how to manage the economy or in particular address this issue. His policies would cause that exchange rate to be even higher.